Future Beyond Al Khalid (I), How can we go Beyond the Khalid?

[randomradio]

So then it means there was work done on this for years!! That is even more strange and goes against your initial statement "The T-90s won't be available to Pakistan since India's ordered it". If you are right about anything like this taking years, it would not have been to put political pressure only, there have been something more to it, something serious. I say this as there is no doubt in the offer and a team from HIT being in Russia to check on it based on the Russian offer. The decision not to pursue it was made by Pakistan side.

All I know is Pakistan has made a request for the T-90s, but the Russians haven't bothered to fulfil any such request.

Presentations and stuff are easy to get from the companies. Go to their defence expos and ask for presentations if you are in a high office, they will give it. You can later ask for more classified presentations also, which the govt has to approve.

But any procurement request has to come from Rosoboronexport, which is similar to the American FMS. So it's these people who will block any sale.

To make it simpler, you can talk to American companies Lockheed Martin, and they will be happy to sell you anything, like the Boeing CEO who said he wants to sell F-22s to India. But it's the govt that decides.

You basically need Putin to support your purchases or nothing's going to happen. AFAIK, you haven't reached that level with the Russians yet.

 

[Maarkhoor]

@Arsalan
Don't waste your time on filthiest troll,

If Russia can sell same weapons to China and India, why Russia hesitate to sale to Pakistan? It is just Indian delusion that upon their request Russia can't sell it to Pakistan....

Russian can sell their mother for money but matter is money since we have situation and habit of buying state of art weapons with aid money or soft loans further our baboos are big fan of US tech they simply can't buy Russian weapons, now situation is slightly changing after success of Chinese weapons.

 

[Signalian]

Tanks have played a vital role since WW1/WW2 , the role has been diminished lately with Advancement in Air-force weapons and other weaponry but if used strategically the Tanks can still cause massive structural damage to clean up vast areas from Infantry and take on Structures of military and Civilian nature

Pakistan's own Al Khalid Tank program while being greatly appreciated since 90's
has faced various challenges one of the most prominent being the Power plant and also the Tank has to mature or a Next generation model need to come out which keeps threats from 2018 in mind

How can Pakistan Army move forward with planning of a Next Generation Tank to move it modern Generation Tanks

Tanks have started to introduce mini Radars and sensors

APS systems are always evolving here as seen in Russian modern generation Tanks

Can the tanks become Stealthy against Air Senors ? Who Knows

Also modern Tech is enhancing how Tank Driver views the 360 Battle field
While still protected from Tank's armor the 360 degree unobstructed view gives a clear view of battle field using special Visors

Advancement in Tank's close Proximity is active in certain nations
Which involves detectors / senors / electronics and intercept weapons at eye blink speeds

And of course the invisible Tank fleet

Something on lines of K-2 MBT...Altay MBT....Ariete MBT.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Something on lines of K-2 MBT...Altay MBT....Ariete MBT.

More like on the lines of armata... common chasis for all future armoured vehicles like IFVs,APCs,CnC APCs, recovery vehicles etc.

 

[Arsalan]

All I know is Pakistan has made a request for the T-90s, but the Russians haven't bothered to fulfil any such request.

Presentations and stuff are easy to get from the companies. Go to their defence expos and ask for presentations if you are in a high office, they will give it. You can later ask for more classified presentations also, which the govt has to approve.

But any procurement request has to come from Rosoboronexport, which is similar to the American FMS. So it's these people who will block any sale.

To make it simpler, you can talk to American companies Lockheed Martin, and they will be happy to sell you anything, like the Boeing CEO who said he wants to sell F-22s to India. But it's the govt that decides.

You basically need Putin to support your purchases or nothing's going to happen. AFAIK, you haven't reached that level with the Russians yet.

Sir you can believe what you want. I am just sharing the first hand information that i am confident about. The tank was offered, a team from HIT went to Russia and a decision was made NOT to pursue the deal. That is it.

I understand your point that the offer might have come from the manufacturer (glad that you think that it did or could have) but it wont have gone through without green light from the Putin gov. My point i was trying to share with you was that i never got to that point and the team decided that its just not worth it so there was no effort made on diplomatic front to secure the deal once the technical side of was not satisfactory. Also i am not so sure about the manufacturer making the offer and having a team inspect the system without gov. being involved. Its Russia we are talking about.

Anyway, as i said, you can believe in what you want. All i am sharing is the thing is know for sure and therefore believe in.

 

[HRK]

The tank was offered, a team from HIT went to Russia and a decision was made NOT to pursue the deal. That is it.

was it because of the refusal to import ammunition from Russia as you earlier break the news about this negotiation

 

[Arsalan]

was it because of the refusal to import ammunition from Russia as you earlier break the news about this negotiation

Partially yes. In fact, i personally know a guy in POF who also traveled to Russia as part of same project. When i first heard about this, it did not made much sense. Why would a team from POF go to Russia even if we are interested in buying the tank, it should have been HIT only. However after some time we came to know about issues regarding ammunition and stuff. More importantly, the tank was not seen as a technology leap or something that would give us an extra edge. Was simply not worth all that effort.

 

[HRK]

Partially yes. In fact, i personally know a guy in POF who also traveled to Russia as part of same project. When i first heard about this, it did not made much sense. Why would a team from POF go to Russia even if we are interested in buying the tank, it should have been HIT only. However after some time we came to know about issues regarding ammunition and stuff. More importantly, the tank was not seen as a technology leap or something that would give us an extra edge. Was simply not worth all that effort.

- which version of T-90 was negotiated T-90M or the latest MS version
- secondly no news about the Oplot-M or VT-4 it seems this program is put on hold ....

 

[randomradio]

Partially yes. In fact, i personally know a guy in POF who also traveled to Russia as part of same project. When i first heard about this, it did not made much sense. Why would a team from POF go to Russia even if we are interested in buying the tank, it should have been HIT only. However after some time we came to know about issues regarding ammunition and stuff. More importantly, the tank was not seen as a technology leap or something that would give us an extra edge. Was simply not worth all that effort.

The T-90MS is pretty much at the pinnacle of 3rd generation tanks. But the main selling point of the tank is that it is very well tested since India operates it, has little to no teething problems due to that, and so many have been made that it's dirt cheap.

Apart from that, the latest versions of the tank can fire large ammunition that neither India nor Pak possess, including the Svinets that can punch through more than 700mm of RHA head-on. And the tank is capable of firing off missiles as well, a capability that Pakistan does not possess. Plus, the tank is well-suited for our environment.

The tank also comes with the option of installing the Swedish active APS called LEDS 150.

In fact, a better tank than the T-90S/MS/M in its weight class is yet to be designed.

So, that thing about it not being a technological leap for Pakistan is highly suspect when there's no real equivalent in its weight class, not even Chinese or Ukrainian tanks.

 

[Arsalan]

The T-90MS is pretty much at the pinnacle of 3rd generation tanks. But the main selling point of the tank is that it is very well tested since India operates it, has little to no teething problems due to that, and so many have been made that it's dirt cheap.

Apart from that, the latest versions of the tank can fire large ammunition that neither India nor Pak possess, including the Svinets that can punch through more than 700mm of RHA head-on. And the tank is capable of firing off missiles as well, a capability that Pakistan does not possess. Plus, the tank is well-suited for our environment.

The tank also comes with the option of installing the Swedish active APS called LEDS 150.

In fact, a better tank than the T-90S/MS/M in its weight class is yet to be designed.

So, that thing about it not being a technological leap for Pakistan is highly suspect when there's no real equivalent in its weight class, not even Chinese or Ukrainian tanks.

Most probably, the reason was that the points you have mentioned were never the things we were looking for or going after. Apart from that, the T90 series have been marred with some pretty well documented problems and that would have been a concern as well. Also since army is satisfied with AK and there is work going on already on Ak-I and may be beyond, T90 was not something that would have given us an edge. All that plus the part regarding having to buy ammunition from Russia put the deal off. But, there was an offer!! You do not go through all this trouble without something serious behind all of it.

- which version of T-90 was negotiated T-90M or the latest MS version
- secondly no news about the Oplot-M or VT-4 it seems this program is put on hold ....

T90MS, as per the guy who discussed this with me.
Noting on Oplot or VT-4. Again, it feels as if Army is not completely satisfied with either of these and until the see the new system to be a considerable upgrade over existing platforms, they wont go ahead.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Most probably, the reason was that the points you have mentioned were never the things we were looking for or going after. Apart from that, the T90 series have been marred with some pretty well documented problems and that would have been a concern as well. Also since army is satisfied with AK and there is work going on already on Ak-I and may be beyond, T90 was not something that would have given us an edge. All that plus the part regarding having to buy ammunition from Russia put the deal off. But, there was an offer!! You do not go through all this trouble without something serious behind all of it.


T90MS, as per the guy who discussed this with me.
Noting on Oplot or VT-4. Again, it feels as if Army is not completely satisfied with either of these and until the see the new system to be a considerable upgrade over existing platforms, they wont go ahead.

any word on AK-2 ?

 

[Arsalan]

any word on AK-2 ?

Multiple people have been quoting very different stories based on their information and since there is no firm official statement, there is lot of confusion. As per my knowledge, it is some time away. We may see some tanks imported working along side Ak and AK-1 for some years before an actual Ak-II comes out. Also very very skeptical about that Al Haider project as, again, different people have been telling different things about it. Some think it may be the next tank that Pakistan produces at home under license while some think it will be a new tank from HIT and some even suggesting that this may be the name of the new tanks that Pakistan may buy from some foreign manufacturer. Personally, i think it is the first one.

HOWEVER, one cannot and should not be very firm and sure about anything since there are so many guys quoting so many different stories. Keep your mind open really!!

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

that cloak is real. but it is expecsive as F.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

AL Khalid is an excellent platform and was a great success. Now I think we should move towards developing a new modern platform. What happened to the Oplots? are we getting them or not.?

ukraine failed to deliver even 200 oplot M to thailand. so oplot M is out of the equation unless they give us transfer of technology and setup factories in pakistan. turkish Altay is the best bet for now. until chinese companies come up with something better than MBT 3000 VT-4

 

[khanasifm]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ide...of_al_khalid_2_main_battle_tank_12911165.html