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Further cuts to defense expenditures

I wonder, with the current state of economy and public support if a conventional war breaks out, how long would we be able to put up a fight.
Not for long. Unlike India, Pakistan don't have any considerable capability to recover from attrition of a high intensity conflict.
This is the reason Pak lowered the nuclear threshold by deploying TNWs so that a limited conflict, in theory, will not escalate to high intensity conflict.
 
I wonder, with the current state of economy and public support if a conventional war breaks out, how long would we be able to put up a fight.

Not for long. Unlike India, Pakistan don't have any considerable capability to recover from attrition of a high intensity conflict.
This is the reason Pak lowered the nuclear threshold by deploying TNWs so that a limited conflict, in theory, will not escalate to high intensity conflict.

We are are nuclear power and India knows it. Also, we have China on our side.

Unlike India, Pakistan don't have any considerable capability to recover from attrition of a high intensity conflict.

Most of the Indian weapons and equipment are Russian junk which is only good for parades and not for wars.
 
We are are nuclear power and India knows it. Also, we have China on our side.



Most of the Indian weapons and equipment are Russian junk which is only good for parades and not for wars.
You are misjudging the scenario and this can be a grave error.
Please remember that it is a nation which fights a war with another. Other countries MAY intervene/ support depending on their own perception of how their own vested interests will be affected by participating or staying out. Please be assured that in war you will be on your own. NO ONE will come to your help INCLUDING China. Please put yourself in the Chinese boots and think why China will step into a war with potentially dosasterous consequences. The regional dynamics are such that you may well be left on your own to fend for yourself. So if you want to wage war prepare to wage the war on your own strength, not banking on the support of XY and Z.
A
 
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This is where you get it wrong
Blaming everything on local industries

Textiles told you give them same prices as bengaldesh and they will double xports

And they did deliver

Now you have taken away that..this means exports will drop and PROBABLY would never recover
@blain2 is 100% correct. Our government needs to set certain export targets for our highly unproductive industrialists, if these targets aren't met within the given timeframe then no more subsidies for them and they can go to hell.
 
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So there's two issues here.

One issue is salaries and most importantly pensions - both civilian and military. This is a direct function of our faltering economy that is unable to produce jobs and thus the government takes the easy route of handing out government jobs. You don't need to be an expert to see why this is unsustainable and really bad.

The other issue is the shrinking size of the economic pie. The military (and judiciary and politicians) has been able to keep its perks and privileges by being more and more extractive of the poor population in the name of national security. So they have had no real incentive to do anything about the shrinking pie because for them life has gone on as usual. Now maybe there is maybe some realization that life will not go on as usual for long with Pakistan's unprecedented bad economy. This is is evident from the national security policy that came out. But I don't know how much of that has actually sunk into the institutions. My hope is that this realization comes before we go bankrupt and not after it.




On a tangent: The relationship of Pakistan's elite and the land is really messed up. The whole idea of generals and judges retiring with large swaths of land is a relic of the British Raj, which essentially makes them zameendars. If our system turns all of our elite into zameendars why would anything be done to rationalize land reforms? Those that don't become zameendars become Bahria town employees and what not. Our obsession with zameen is really toxic.
Unfortunately, the cuts right now are affecting procurement (which annoys us on the forum), but (from what I can see) not as much in the way of salaries, perks, or pensions (which would also be bad, but is the type of 'pain' that gets more of the armed forces to wake up to the economic problems).

Regarding land, did you know that even Islam has a land tax? It's called Kharaj. When he was Caliph, Umar ibn al-Khattab (RA) refused to dole out land to the warriors who fought in the Levant, Persia and Egypt. He (RA) told them (one of which was Bilal RA, funnily enough) that Rasul'Allah (SAW) gave away land before because the Muslims were poor. Since by this point the Sahaba (RA) weren't poor, Umar (RA) didn't want to give them the land.

Instead, Umar (RA) returned the land to the market and put the Kharaj tax on whoever bought or owned that land. Not only that, but Umar (RA) himself said that he was taxing the land to fund the new standing army (the Jund, which was recruiting new converts in Persia, Byzantine regions, Egypt, etc) with wages, fortresses along the frontiers, the new navy in Egypt, the widows and orphans, etc.

I'm just bringing this up because this idea of taxing land isn't an advanced rocket "saanse" (science) or a radical "laa" (law). It's common sense. But like many obvious good things in life, our leaders perennially evade it.
 
Wrong! This is YOUR interpretation of what has gone wrong! This is without any judicial oversight or journalistic/ judicial research and investigation. You are assigning guilt without initiating investigations.
Look, I am equally disgusted with what has gone wrong and want to see the perpetrators brought out into the public and IF CULPABLE, PUNISHED. However, firstly this needs to be investigated fully and impartially before you can assign blame. Secondly, the investigations need to assign blame on people backed by solid proof.
From the military perspective a senior remains a senior and needs to be saluted as per protocol. This is the discipline which needs to be maintained to achieve the ends the army needs its juniors to achieve. Otherwise, imagine a Hawaldar saying on the battle front in the midst of a war, " I do not agree with this decision therefore I will not carry it out". This will create chaos within the ranks and file.
Again firstly investigate fully then if culpable assign blame and punish. But do not turn into judge, jury and executioner as that is transgression of your own abilities and unfair on the accused. Similarly if you want to protest, do so against the action but do not assign an action to someone without investigations and blame it on them.
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Lets agree to disagree.

(LOL which mod delete my Post with reason " Incite Mutiny ") I mean seriously how old MODS are in this forum ? 12 year olds ?
 
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On a tangent: The relationship of Pakistan's elite and the land is really messed up. The whole idea of generals and judges retiring with large swaths of land is a relic of the British Raj, which essentially makes them zameendars. If our system turns all of our elite into zameendars why would anything be done to rationalize land reforms? Those that don't become zameendars become Bahria town employees and what not. Our obsession with zameen is really toxic.
Land reform, agricultural reform, civil service, land value and/or wealth tax incl land. At least with the first two we can progress to where the rest of the world was in the 1960s.
 
Land reform, agricultural reform, civil service, land value and/or wealth tax incl land. At least with the first two we can progress to where the rest of the world was in the 1960s.
You need to have leadership that understands that and is not profiting from the lack of existence of these.
Sometimes, what is happening in Sri Lanka isn't a bad thing.

A "safaya" is necessary.
 
Pakistan essentially needs to go on war footing with not letting our businesses/industry import without exporting something.

Essentially a credit system. If you want to import a certain amount etc., you/your industry must have a similar amount outbound. No more one-way imports or local only distribution for consumption.

I recall a Podcast with Miftah Ismail prior to he was in government. This was sort of his line of thinking. Now when he is in the hot seat, hopefully he can put some meaningful changes in the system which can be sustained.
He recently said that this is being implemented.
 
Land reform, agricultural reform, civil service, land value and/or wealth tax incl land. At least with the first two we can progress to where the rest of the world was in the 1960s.
Add a substantial increase in female employment to the list, especially those from the middle class.
 
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Remove all gardeners, drivers, secretaries, batmans etc of ALL the military officials…..how much does that save?
Officials can use their own salaries to pay for servants if they like. Apna kaam khud kerna sekho, shayad tidd kam hojaway
Bring joblessness in society and increase salaries of officers to afford extra help ? Good plan to bring parity.
 
Let your reason guide you not your hate! The actions of a few do not reflect upon the efforts of many who give their lives to keep us all safe. So do not demean the effort of the majority for the disservice of a few.
More than ever I now feelthis whole unsavoury episode needs to be dissected and fully investigated to uncover what happened.
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The thing is "that few" matters and there is no one who can held them accountable.

Wrong! This is YOUR interpretation of what has gone wrong! This is without any judicial oversight or journalistic/ judicial research and investigation. You are assigning guilt without initiating investigations.
Look, I am equally disgusted with what has gone wrong and want to see the perpetrators brought out into the public and IF CULPABLE, PUNISHED. However, firstly this needs to be investigated fully and impartially before you can assign blame. Secondly, the investigations need to assign blame on people backed by solid proof.
From the military perspective a senior remains a senior and needs to be saluted as per protocol. This is the discipline which needs to be maintained to achieve the ends the army needs its juniors to achieve. Otherwise, imagine a Hawaldar saying on the battle front in the midst of a war, " I do not agree with this decision therefore I will not carry it out". This will create chaos within the ranks and file.
Again firstly investigate fully then if culpable assign blame and punish. But do not turn into judge, jury and executioner as that is transgression of your own abilities and unfair on the accused. Similarly if you want to protest, do so against the action but do not assign an action to someone without investigations and blame it on them.
A

Who will bring generals to court? why not start by making sessions in which generals attend Parliament made public?

Bring joblessness in society and increase salaries of officers to afford extra help ? Good plan to bring parity.

Gov and military jobs "consume" tax money. Whereas private sector jobs "make" tax money.

Only if your fauji mind can understand that.
 
Army won't give up their 300 billion rupees

Never ever
Not quite so.

Pakistan Army has contributed Rs 28 billion in FY-2020/21.
DHA provided Rs 20 billion in taxes in last 5 years.
NLC has paid Rs. 6 billion in taxes in the last five years.

Fauji Foundation contribution reached Rs 1 Billion revenue per annum besides the funds incurred on own welfare drive upto Rs. 10 billion. The overall employees ratio in Fauji Foundation is 3,989 ex-service men and 22,652 civilians which makes 79 percent of civilian employees. In last 5 years, Fauji Foundation paid Rs 5 Trillion in taxes and levies.

Army welfare organizations contributed around Rs. 156 billion as taxes per annum which is equivalent to approximately 26 percent of Army’s budget.

Gov and military jobs "consume" tax money. Whereas private sector jobs "make" tax money.

Only if your fauji mind can understand that.
Read the above post. I hope your peanut of a brain can digest that.
 
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