France - Pakistan , Avionics & possibly Plane deal revival, Post cancellation of MRCA

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Indian attempt to steal key technology from Rival planes from various countries , also known as the MRCA Project Bit the Dust , started in 2001 , officially the paperwork was released in 2007

For 7 years India wasted large organizations time by their "study" , or perhaps covert viewing emerging planes so the knowledge can be stolen for design of their own Tejas

However , after long turn around finally they cancelled the deal, once enough knowledge was stolen by scientist etc

In 2010, 1.5 Billion deal between Pakistan - France was delayed due to pressure
However since then Pakistan have gone to make 82 jf17 Thunder.

Now focus has shifted back to Pakistan - French relations

To revive deals to provide Block 4 upgrades on Thunder (None Export Version), or perhaps even bring Rafale to Table for Pakistan, which was already appreciated since 2006


Pakistan - France , Traditional Allies since 70s have maintained trust worthy business and human relations

• France providing Mirage for Pakistani Airforce
• French also stepped it up when Pakistan was sanctioned to give us Mirage ROSE project
• Who can forget the Great AGOSTA project with Transfer of Technology, which put Pakistan's navy on Map
• The Mirage Rebuilt Factor is a shinning example of Cooperation between French - Pakistan relations

It is hoped the two nations can once again revive the project of cooperation with regards to Thunder Block 4, or even Rafale deal which Pakistan valued greatly since 2006

It would be only fair that France helps us replace the Pakistan Mirage Planes 100%

Agosta Manufacturing Project:

Mirage / Pakistan : A Success Story spanning 20+ Years

Source #1
Fate of India-France Rafale Fighter Deal Uncertain | The Diplomat

French official told the Business Standard that if the Indian defense ministry continues to drive a hard negotiation, France could look elsewhere: ”We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia,” he remarked, highlighting other deals. The same official went on with a particularly biting taunt for Indian defense officials: “Go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan
also.”




Source : #2
August 05, 2015

Confirmed: India’s ‘Mother of All Defense Deals’ Is Dead | The Diplomat

It is official now: The Indian government has cancelled its $12 billion program to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), according to Defense News.

“The RFP issued earlier for procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale aircraft met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the Request for Proposal (RFP) during the evaluation conducted by Indian Air Force,” a July 30 press release circulated by the Indian Ministry of Defense stated.

The statement provided no additional reasons for the program’s cancellation, although the announcement comes as no surprise to observers. Pricing differences as well as the inability to come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement over the question of technological transfers, as well doubts over India’s ability to build the plane locally, were the likely main causes for the withdrawal of the RFP.



Source 3: 2010
France says JF-17 avionics sale to Pakistan held up | Indian Defence Forum

France's plan to sell 1.2 billion euro ($1.6 billion) worth of military equipment for Pakistan's JF-17 combat aircraft has been held up, a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said on Friday.

Newspaper Le Monde had reported earlier that France decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles -- the first section of a 6 billion euro contract -- under pressure from India

A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales (TCFP.PA) and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment.

 

[باپ]

One minute silence for the poor French

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Thunder Block 4 , would be nice (None Export) version.
Some French weapons / Package for French (Thunder Block 4)

Also possibility of RAFALE could potentially fly with Pakistan would be a great prospect
Considering , we do have a technological and numerical gap to cover

It really seems Indians just wanted to Analyze various planes and their performance and collect data for their Teja Platform, the amount of Data they collected in 7 years , not only reduced the market value of other nation's planes but also allowed them to work on their own plane

Pakistan Approached France in 2006 for Rafale prospects, if we had started to get planes in 2006 by now we would have had reasonable 40-45 plane force , not to mention avionics package deal for Thunder

Considering we need 190-200 planes , the French - Pakistan , cooperation can help build on the existing partnership the two nations have enjoyed since past 70's

**Note Pakistan is officially largest Operator of French planes

Still so shiny like brand new

 

[airmarshal]

How did you assume, reading from the three sources you have quoted in your first post, that France is interested in selling weapons to Pakistan? That Pakistan is interested in French planes?

 

[Alpha Fighter]

A) lol, Technology cannot be steal like that, if it is then many countries would be making US planes

B) What happened to the claims that Chinese Technology was best , and JFT do not require any western components?

 

[somebozo]

Indian attempt to steal key technology from Rival planes from various countries , also known as the MRCA Project Bit the Dust , started in 2001 , officially the paperwork was released in 2007

For 7 years India wasted large organizations time by their "study" , or perhaps covert viewing emerging planes so the knowledge can be stolen for design of their own Tejas

However , after long turn around finally they cancelled the deal, once enough knowledge was stolen by scientist etc

In 2010, 1.5 Billion deal between Pakistan - France was delayed due to pressure
However since then Pakistan have gone to make 82 jf17 Thunder.

Now focus has shifted back to Pakistan - French relations

To revive deals to provide Block 4 upgrades on Thunder (None Export Version), or perhaps even bring Rafale to Table for Pakistan, which was already appreciated since 2006

this is common tactic when dealing with Indian purchasers also..therefore I will delete key pieces of information and itemized part numbers when quoting to Indians...because as soon as they have a proposal they will start floating to freezone trading company in Jebel Ali who can then buy it from European suppliers and re-export.

A) lol, Technology cannot be steal like that, if it is then many countries would be making US planes

B) What happened to the claims that Chinese Technology was best , and JFT do not require any western components?

A lot of technical details can be viewed in this manner even if outright copy of technology is not possible
Pakistan never claimed it does not need Western tech..infact JF17 from its inception was designed to accommodate French avionics...

Pakistan should not only push for a high discount but also sign an unconditional agreement for the future..and also demand ToT!

France said no for jf17 Avionics

 

[Zain Malik]

Indian attempt to steal key technology from Rival planes from various countries , also known as the MRCA Project Bit the Dust , started in 2001 , officially the paperwork was released in 2007

For 7 years India wasted large organizations time by their "study" , or perhaps covert viewing emerging planes so the knowledge can be stolen for design of their own Tejas

However , after long turn around finally they cancelled the deal, once enough knowledge was stolen by scientist etc

In 2010, 1.5 Billion deal between Pakistan - France was delayed due to pressure
However since then Pakistan have gone to make 82 jf17 Thunder.

Now focus has shifted back to Pakistan - French relations

To revive deals to provide Block 4 upgrades on Thunder (None Export Version), or perhaps even bring Rafale to Table for Pakistan, which was already appreciated since 2006


Pakistan - France , Traditional Allies since 70s have maintained trust worthy business and human relations

• France providing Mirage for Pakistani Airforce
• French also stepped it up when Pakistan was sanctioned to give us Mirage ROSE project
• Who can forget the Great AGOSTA project with Transfer of Technology, which put Pakistan's navy on Map
• The Mirage Rebuilt Factor is a shinning example of Cooperation between French - Pakistan relations

It is hoped the two nations can once again revive the project of cooperation with regards to Thunder Block 4, or even Rafale deal which Pakistan valued greatly since 2006

It would be only fair that France helps us replace the Pakistan Mirage Planes 100%

Agosta Manufacturing Project:

Mirage / Pakistan : A Success Story spanning 20+ Years

Source #1
Fate of India-France Rafale Fighter Deal Uncertain | The Diplomat

French official told the Business Standard that if the Indian defense ministry continues to drive a hard negotiation, France could look elsewhere: ”We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia,” he remarked, highlighting other deals. The same official went on with a particularly biting taunt for Indian defense officials: “Go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan
also.”




Source : #2
August 05, 2015

Confirmed: India’s ‘Mother of All Defense Deals’ Is Dead | The Diplomat

It is official now: The Indian government has cancelled its $12 billion program to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), according to Defense News.

“The RFP issued earlier for procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale aircraft met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the Request for Proposal (RFP) during the evaluation conducted by Indian Air Force,” a July 30 press release circulated by the Indian Ministry of Defense stated.

The statement provided no additional reasons for the program’s cancellation, although the announcement comes as no surprise to observers. Pricing differences as well as the inability to come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement over the question of technological transfers, as well doubts over India’s ability to build the plane locally, were the likely main causes for the withdrawal of the RFP.



Source 3: 2010
France says JF-17 avionics sale to Pakistan held up | Indian Defence Forum

France's plan to sell 1.2 billion euro ($1.6 billion) worth of military equipment for Pakistan's JF-17 combat aircraft has been held up, a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said on Friday.

Newspaper Le Monde had reported earlier that France decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles -- the first section of a 6 billion euro contract -- under pressure from India

A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales (TCFP.PA) and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment.

whatever they do the tejas cant flyeven if they get blue prints pf raptors they cant made them by their own......

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 i hate to say it but i think yr pushing it.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well if we logically look at it we showed interest back in 2006 in RAFALE

Formal interest , however then as you know we had earth quake and flood issues so many defense deals were sidelined, even our modest order for F16 in that time was reduced due to it

Also , there was the MRCA deal which caused us to not get the package what we were after for Avionics

2007 the MRCA caued our 1.5 Billion to 2.0 Billion project to be sidelined when funds did become available post calamity of floods

So realistically , France needs customers , and we are a pretty solid customer - considering we have need for 190-200 planes which need replacement.

Rafale project cost around 93 Billion dollars, and obviously it is a good platform for us
Ideal gap plane between 4.0 and 6th Generation platform

Now , with Thunder being in Block 2 STAGE , the only way we can integrate French Avionics is perhaps in Block 4, I am sure R&D for Block 3 is already taking place

But realistically we do need to retire Mirages and to replace it with French plane would be morally right considering they have assisted us , in past

*We really need a partner where we can order , and there is no "RED TAPE" just smooth order process and delivery , so we can just move on with this upgrade of our planes

This few F16 here and there deal does not work anymore

Example:
Turkey orders their plane gets it in quantity (decent quantity)
Egypt orders their planes gets it in quantity
Saudia orders their Typhoon and they get it in large quantity in time


It should be rapid for us since we are technically members of certain cooperative memberships

The delay in F16 personally has left a bad taste

I mean when we ordered our Mirage in 90's we had a quick acceptable ROI (Return on investment)

MIRAGE has a fan base equal as that of F16

Don't get me wrong I love the planes (F16) but just sorta Ridiculous that we have to wait for long time for 'em - when national security dictates we should update 190-200 planes


Out of the 3 interesting deals , we have good partnership with French
Otherwise Sukhoi is a lovely plane
Gripen is always a nice compact bird as well

 

[MastanKhan]

Well if we logically look at it we showed interest back in 2006 in RAFALE

Formal interest , however then as you know we had earth quake and flood issues so many defense deals were sidelined, even our modest order for F16 in that time was reduced due to it

Also , there was the MRCA deal which caused us to not get the package what we were after for Avionics

2007 the MRCA caued our 1.5 Billion to 2.0 Billion project to be sidelined when funds did become available post calamity of floods

So realistically , France needs customers , and we are a pretty solid customer - considering we have need for 190-200 planes which need replacement.

Rafale project cost around 93 Billion dollars, and obviously it is a good platform for us
Ideal gap plane between 4.0 and 6th Generation platform

Now , with Thunder being in Block 2 STAGE , the only way we can integrate French Avionics is perhaps in Block 4, I am sure R&D for Block 3 is already taking place

But realistically we do need to retire Mirages and to replace it with French plane would be morally right considering they have assisted us , in past

*We really need a partner where we can order , and there is no "RED TAPE" just smooth order process and delivery , so we can just move on with this upgrade of our planes

This few F16 here and there deal does not work anymore

Example:
Turkey orders their plane gets it in quantity (decent quantity)
Egypt orders their planes gets it in quantity
Saudia orders their Typhoon and they get it in large quantity in time


It should be rapid for us since we are technically members of certain cooperative memberships

The delay in F16 personally has left a bad taste

I mean when we ordered our Mirage in 90's we had a quick acceptable ROI (Return on investment)

MIRAGE has a fan base equal as that of F16

Don't get me wrong I love the planes (F16) but just sorta Ridiculous that we have to wait for long time for 'em - when national security dictates we should update 190-200 planes


Out of the 3 interesting deals , we have good partnership with French
Otherwise Sukhoi is a lovely plane
Gripen is always a nice compact bird as well

View attachment 300239

Hi,

Our interest in the Rafale was before 9/11---so around 2002 and 2004---we checked out the Rafale---.

The earthquake was no reason for paf to donate the money---.

The money was given to the paf to buy first grade weapons---to save the motherland---Paf had no right to donate---that was like treason.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Hi,

Our interest in the Rafale was before 9/11---so around 2002 and 2004---we checked out the Rafale---.

The earthquake was no reason for paf to donate the money---.

The money was given to the paf to buy first grade weapons---to save the motherland---Paf had no right to donate---that was like treason.

Thank you for the add on , I did not knew it was way before even 2000's , but but kind gesture from Airforce to donate the funds to people in need, money can always be attained. Saving lives comes first

I recall the Floods and quakes were quite devastating

 

[ConcealCarry]

1977 - France backs out from agreement to supply heavy water reactor to Pakistan
2007 - France backs out from agreement to supply avionics for Thunders

Trust worthy?

Pakistan - France , Traditional Allies since 70s have maintained trust worthy business and human relations

 

[wiseone2]

this is common tactic when dealing with Indian purchasers also..therefore I will delete key pieces of information and itemized part numbers when quoting to Indians...because as soon as they have a proposal they will start floating to freezone trading company in Jebel Ali who can then buy it from European suppliers and re-export.



A lot of technical details can be viewed in this manner even if outright copy of technology is not possible
Pakistan never claimed it does not need Western tech..infact JF17 from its inception was designed to accommodate French avionics...

Pakistan should not only push for a high discount but also sign an unconditional agreement for the future..and also demand ToT!

France said no for jf17 Avionics

if France played hardball with India they will suck the blood out of Pakistan
i hate to put it - the price tag for the Rafales are ridiculous

40 Rafales for the PAF would cost $9 billion

 

[MastanKhan]

Thank you for the add on , I did not knew it was way before even 2000's , but but kind gesture from Airforce to donate the funds to people in need, money can always be attained. Saving lives comes first

I recall the Floods and quakes were quite devastating

Hi,

Sir---it does not----it is not their job to save lives because the funds were for weapons---it the states job to save lives---.

If my mother has cancer---do you think that the money I have---I will donate to someone else for food and not treat her---.

That money spent on the 72 F16's would have totally changed our tactical position in the sub continent---now we are a Bi-tch and being bi-tch slapped every other day by our neighbor.

You kids are ready to fall down for sob stories just like that---.

Our military position changed when the order was cancelled to buy the 72 F16's.

The money for the F16's was not for the air force to donate----.

1977 - France backs out from agreement to supply heavy water reactor to Pakistan
2007 - France backs out from agreement to supply avionics for Thunders

Trust worthy?

Hi,

Pakistanis did not give a sh-it about 17 dead french engineers----who were there in karachi building the most advanced submarines in asia.

Pakistan deceived france by cancelling the deal for the purchase of airbus aircraft and went for the boeing in HOPE for direct flights to the U S from pakistan----.

After supplying the boeings---the U S said---fck off no direct flights---.

As for the avionics---if you could find my older posts---I had wrote about it---the france would not give paf the avionics---.

Paf deceived itself one more time---it failed tactically one more time---.

Now---after getting the agosta---why would pakistan go to germany for subs---when france was ready to sell them newer subs---.


We already had a proven and tested system---everything french that we procured---lasted a very long time and still we went shopping for the german subs---full of problems as the greeks found out later.

See---pakistan has been more deceitful to the french. For the french to put restrictions---the pressure has to be monumental---they even put sanctions on the israelis years ago---that is why the israeli stole the mirage blue prints---they put sanctions on the gun boats that they built for israel as well.

 

[sathya]

9 billion = 270 jf17 block 3