France - Pakistan , Avionics & possibly Plane deal revival, Post cancellation of MRCA

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French can never be trusted.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Lol you know we are flying most french planes in world

Considering the Big set backs in French defense industry

a) The mistral deal (billions lost $5,000,000,000 USD)
Lost potential extra sale of Helicopter to third party, plus mistral

b) Indian MRCA (Billions lost $20,000,000,000 USD)
http://www.financialexpress.com/art...guarantee-for-20-bn-mmrca-deal-experts/63131/ (Price listed)

c) Now UAE refusing to buy RAFALE ($10,000,000,000) USD
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...at-to-rafale-as-uae-look-at-super-hornet.html

Total Loss : 35,000,000,000 USD Billion Dollar


I think the environment is right to work with French

a) Thunder - Block 4
b) RAFALE (Fill Gap plane), if stealth plane is not needed or delayed , just order next batch


We might just need small batch of 45 planes like in 80's when we got our F16 and then keep option for another 80

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Considering the Big set backs in French defense industry

a) The mistral deal (billions lost $4-5 Billion)
b) Indian MRCA (Billions lost $20 Billion)
c) Now UAE refusing to buy RAFALE (Against Billions lost)

I think the environment is right to work with French

a) Thunder - Block 4
b) RAFALE (Fill Gap plane)

First you have to convince USA ; they are the ONLY obstacle
in the JF 17 avionics deal

 

[salarsikander]

The initial quote for $10 billion for 126 aircraft. Now the GOI was negotiating 36 aircraft for $9 billion

@Abingdonboy will not agree to the above figure

First you have to convince USA ; they are the ONLY obstacle

How so ?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think a French poster indicated (prior to data corruption issue on this forum) , he is french by the way

"The French , deal independently , they do not get guidance for their own matter of interest"

They eat their own food, live in their own style homes , they have their own better fashion then other countries , and they sure know how to sell their own planes

Pakistan - French , ties and cooperation run deep with past business transactions

For me the AGOSTA project was really something it was always in news and every one prasied the cooperation

Not sure why the cooperation can not exist

France sold plane to Egypt
France sold planes to Qatar

Now in 2005 or 2006 if they had sold the plane to us we would have had the wonderful honor of
being second air-force to fly the french plane

But obviously due to India (side show) the deal was effected

Had we started to upgrade (Induct Rafale in 2006 by now we would have had healthy 70 planes)

Our Airforce is due a minor facelift

I would not even bother with stealth plane for 5-8 years if RAFALE comes to Pakistan

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy will not agree to the above figure

How so ?

I'm going to stay out of this thread brother, I don't want to break anyone's heart....

 

[salarsikander]

I'm going to stay out of this thread brother, I don't want to break anyone's heart....

Hi,

Both of us know that figure is pure B.S.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Abingdonboy will not agree to the above figure

How so ?

Who ORDERED European Countries to Impose an Arms EMBARGO on China

It was USA ; USA threatened Europe that if France and Germany do not stop Arms
sale to China ; there will be serious consequences

All this happened in 2005

USA does nt want any High tech goods to reach China

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hi,

Both of us know that figure is pure B.S.

100% but what's the use in correcting one minor fact when the conclusion is predetermined?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 @salarsikander

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/02/chin-f21.html

http://www.udel.edu/globalagenda/2005/student/readings/euro-china-arms-sales.html

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2005/mar/21/20050321-090719-9786r/

 

[salarsikander]

USA does nt want any High tech goods to reach China

Hi,

But under the pretext of civilian goods they are getting what they want, such as engines for merchant or civil ships are being exported and that very same tech is being used in their new boats.

Remember that wave cutting boat tech
China’s Houbei class fast-speed missile boats,
Harbin Z-9
they are still getting the stuff they want if not exactly but comparable, yes

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well unfortunately , the posters posting stuff about china is irrelevant to the argument , as Pakistan is a Independent Airforce , we have run MIRAGE plane 100% with French early on and then independently

French obviously played a role in defense needs for Pakistan
and Yet you don't see copies of MIRAGE in China

So I think it is really not appropriate to conclude otherwise.

Also in term of Technological Embargo on China perhaps that is a discussion for different thread

China Space Tech: https://defence.pk/threads/chinese-space-capabilities.84216/
China defense : https://defence.pk/threads/chinese-made-weapons-exports-to-foreign-countries.273332/
China I think is doing well, they already fly Stealth planes

China -> They making 20 planes made in China / Stealth


The thread is really about , PAKISTAN being an ideal customer , for France
We only make Thunders (JF17 thunder) but we have room for RAFALE

As we have extensive French Equipment in our Airforce

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Hi,

But under the pretext of civilian goods they are getting what they want, such as engines for merchant or civil ships are being exported and that very same tech is being used in their new boats.

Remember that wave cutting boat tech
China’s Houbei class fast-speed missile boats,
Harbin Z-9
they are still getting the stuff they want if not exactly but comparable, yes

Missile boats are Minor items ; Avionics are HUGE

The 2007 French avionics deal for JF 17 ; did not happen;
That was also the result of US LED arms embargo

Europe has to comply with US ORDERS

Just read this

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/...101800591cjsamoht0.2950708.html#axzz45pxE8ncI

But while the United States supports and encourages European efforts to enhance these ties, it does not believe that lifting the embargo imposed in 1989 contributes to this goal.

Nor is lifting the China arms embargo in Europe's strategic interests, in the U.S. view. No current mechanisms exist to prevent China from transferring technology and lethal weaponry to other, less stable regions of the world, or to use it for the purposes of internal repression.

And ending the EU embargo would also have a negative impact on Asian regional stability, Rice has said at every opportunity.

The U.S. Congress has repeatedly expressed concern about this issue, and a recent House of Representatives version of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) contained provisions that would preclude the Department of Defense from procuring defense articles or services from any "foreign person" who transfers defense items to China.

On February 2, the House by a vote of 411-3 passed a nonbinding resolution urging the European Union to maintain its arms embargo on China and to close gaps in the current embargo, “in the national export control systems of EU member states, and in the EU's Code of Conduct on Arms Exports in order to prevent any future sale of arms or related technology to China.”

European advocates of ending the embargo have pointed out that without the embargo, there could be some limits on sales of arms to China through the EU Code of Conduct.

But the EU Code of Conduct has not been sufficient and is not legally binding, according to U.S. officials, who say it has not deterred the sales of millions of euros of dangerous technology thus far.

The United States has said it would welcome EU efforts to improve the minimal export control standards contained in the Code of Conduct provided such improvements are made in a manner that continues to signal to China that human rights and relations with its neighbors do matter.

Throughout her trip, Rice has described the European allies as “open to our concerns.”

On February 4 after meeting with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw in London, Rice said she felt Europeans are listening, and "we are in a situation in which we are working to understand each other better and to see how we can move forward."

On February 9 in Brussels after a NATO meeting, Rice said an “open discussion” with the allies continued.

“I really have to underscore how much the Europeans have tried to take account of our concerns, how good our discussions have been about that,” said Rice, adding: “I do not know where this will all come out, but I do hope that everyone understands, and I think by now everyone does understand, that the United States has very specific concerns about the lifting of the embargo.”

She added, “We're having fruitful discussions with our European colleagues and I hope that they will come out in a way that is fruitful for both sides.”

Briefing the press after meeting in Brussels February 9 with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and European Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner, Rice said both the United States and the EU “want to see a China that … rises as a positive factor in international politics and in the international economy.”

She added, “If there is an issue about the EU arms embargo with China, it too is understood in the context of a strategy that tries to get to a place where China is a positive influence in international politics.”

“As I understand it, a decision has not yet been taken, but we will continue to work with our European allies and we will see where we come out,” Rice said. “All that we can ask is that the European Union is aware of our concerns, understands them fully and takes them fully into consideration in any decision that is made."


Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/...101800591cjsamoht0.2950708.html#ixzz45pxa1xNN

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Again , the sale is between Pakistan-France

China "makes" its own technology , planes , ships , subs, computers , super computers etc

Example:
When Boeing sold 27-30 billion dollar planes to Iran I doubt they were worried about China
or Arms embargo etc - business is business

Just 2 days ago , Boeing in talks to sell planes, aircraft services in Iran
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-in-talks-to-sell-planes-aircraft-services-in-iran-2016-04-12

It is a business transaction companies need to make sales to survive

 

[MastanKhan]

Again , the sale is between Pakistan-France

China "makes" its own technology , planes , ships , subs, computers , super computers etc

Example:
When Boeing sold 40-50 billion dollar planes to Iran I doubt they were worried about China
or Arms embargo etc - business is business

It is a business transaction companies need to make sales to survive

Hi,

If there is one service that can use the stamp " I AM STUPID "---that is PAF----. Their arrogance & ignorance always get in the way of better judgement.

We 60 years old people already know that the terms with the U S are going to be hot and going to be cold---3-4 years hot---8-10 years cold---.

Nothing new---nothing special---.

That is why--I don't understand and cannot comprehend that how did the Paf fck up so bad on the procurement---.

The Rafale was available in 2002-03-04. France was desperate for Pakistan to buy these aircraft---.