France OKs Sub Talks With Pakistan

[MOO]

Islamabad Wants U.S. Harpoon Missiles To Arm Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.

But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile maker MBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.

Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.

“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.

A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.

Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.

In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.
“It’s good news,” he said.

Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment

Obstacles

Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.

Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.

Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.

Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.

Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.

These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.

But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.

“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”
Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.

One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •

Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.

 

[Reichmarshal]

France OKs Sub Talks With Pakistan
Islamabad Wants U.S. Harpoon Missiles To Arm Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

Source: From Defense News today posted by JameelY of Pak defence info.

France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.
But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile maker MBDA, the executive said.
Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million.
But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.
Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.
“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said.
India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.
A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market.
Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.
Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG.
In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.
In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices.
On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.
“It’s good news,” he said.
Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment
Obstacles
Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging.
Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the executive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.
Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.
Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.
Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said.
But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said.
A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.
Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss.
As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.
Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.
These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said.
“They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said.
The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.
But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades.
“That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.
“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”
Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.
One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •

Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report

 

[MOO]

Basically what Pakistan is being offered are newer version of improve Scorpion subs with the request to integrate Harpoon missiles onboard.

If I was Pakistan I would rather prefer buying new Chinese diesel-electric Yuan class SSK.


YJ-8X Anti-ship missile (Twice the range of the Exocet):

 

[master_fx]

russian club missiles are the best with range of 280km.....

 

[MOO]

I thought it was 220km.:idiot:

How many Novatar cruise missiles can the New Kilos fire FX?

 

[master_fx]

but the new 3M-54E1 Novatar cruise missile have range of 300km.....

btw i am not sure, possibly around 8 Novatar cruise missiles....... but i am sure 093 SSN will have more(around 24 with range of 280km)

 

[Neo]

Great news for Pakistan indeed!
Can someone please post the specifics of Marlin and pictures?
Thanks!

 

[A.Rahman]

Great news for Pakistan indeed!
Can someone please post the specifics of Marlin and pictures?
Thanks!

Accoring to Mr. Syed A of pakdef

no one has it, its a conceptual design

 

[Neo]

You mean its never built and tested??

 

[A.Rahman]

I went to Armaris website. Couldnt find any info about Marlin ssk


http://www.armarisgroup.com/uk/HTML/products.html

 

[Neo]

I found the same link, but no pics indeed.
Well the article says that Pakistan would become the launch customer meaning that even the French navy hasn't ordered the Marlin yet.

Whatever the concept maybe, I expect the design to be better that the Agosta or the Scorpene.
We have already received full ToT for the former, so integrating into the Marlin should require minimum efforts.
Do you think we'll be able to integrate the Harpoon or possibly the Babur into this new design?

 

[A.Rahman]

There is a reason that we are spending our limited resources on harpoon.

 

[Neo]

Source: Defence News

Pakistan Seeks 3 Subs From France
New Design Would Free DCN of Spanish Partnership
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

Pakistani interest in three attack submarines is forcing France to make hard decisions over industrial interests vested in the DCN naval systems company and diplomatic and economic relations with Spain and India, analysts said.

Islamabad intends to spend $1 billion to $1.2 billion on three patrol submarines, preferably of a new design from DCN but possibly of the German 214 class, a Pakistani official said.

But the potential sale of high-tech weapons to Pakistan may be too much for the French government to swallow. The deal would steady employment at DCN's Cherbourg sub yard, but would likely antagonize India, with whom Paris recently signed a defense agreement. New Delhi also is a submarine customer, having recently purchased six of DCN's Scorpene attack subs.

The sale of an all-French design also might raise hackles in Spain. The Spanish are partners in building the Scorpene, but Spain's Navantia yard
is teaming with Lockheed Martin on its S-80 boat.

The Pakistani official said Islamabad "is interested in a single-hull submarine," distinct from quieter, more expensive double-hulled boats.

"We have made it known there is a requirement for three submarines."

Islamabad wants a formal offer within six months from Armaris, the naval marketing joint venture of DCN and French systems house Thales, so it can
order the subs within a year, the official said.

The country also is looking to buy 25 to 30 highly capable fighter aircraft, and is considering the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab JAS 39 Gripen, the official said.

A Pakistani delegation is due to go to Italy next month to see the Typhoon go through flight trials, he said.

The pursuit of the Pakistan deal shows DCN wants to develop new subs for export.

"This is a logical move, given DCN's strong installed base in SSKs [diesel-powered attack submarines] and the attractions of the SSK market," said Sash Tusa, an analyst at brokerage Goldman Sachs. But going it alone might be seen as undermining all the recent talk of building European defense,
French government and industry executives said.

The submarine sale underlines the clash between industrial and diplomatic interests for France, an analyst said.

"Industry needs it, but the French government does not want to contribute to a potential arms race in the region and cannot afford to upset India," said Loic Tribot La Spiere, chief executive of the think tank Centre d'Etude et Prospective Strategique.

French military ties with Pakistan date back three decades. The Pakistani Navy was an early export customer of DCN's Daphne submarine in the
mid-1960s, setting the bar for other navies that operated near the Persian Gulf. Pakistan bought three Agosta 90B boats, dubbed the Khalid class,
in the mid-1990s. Pakistan's Air Force has flown the French-built Dassault Mirage III and V fighters.

This longstanding relationship gives DCN an edge in the competition, the Pakistani official said.

"We know their processes, their procedures," the official said.

Wanted: Export Approval

But if Paris withholds export approval, Pakistan might turn to the 214 submarine built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), part of
Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. It also might consider buying the subs from China, he said.

DCN is keen to sell, but has had trouble prying export approval from the high-level Commission Interministérielle D'exportation des Matériels de Guerre.

Officially, Armaris has not proposed a new submarine, because it lacks approval for an offer from the committee. But that did not prevent
Armaris officials from making an informal product briefing on a DCN design to a Pakistani delegation led by a senior naval officer in mid-February, here.

The Pakistani official said delegation members were given to understand that DCN had been cleared by the export committee to make an offer.

A French industry executive, however, said there is no offer because clearance has been withheld. And a French defense official said, "The attitude towards Pakistan is a very cautious one, where great prudence is needed."

Armaris declined comment. The Ministry of Defense spokesman was not immediately available. The Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister's office
referred questions to the Ministry of Defense.

A DCN spokeswoman said the company did not discuss its clients and declined comment. Still, the Pakistani official said his government expects a formal offer next month from Armaris.

DCN's new design, code-named Marlin, closely resembles the 10-year-old Scorpene design, but would include newer technology, including features of the Barracuda nuclear attack boats to be built for the French Navy.

Marlin would have an air-independent propulsion (AIP) unit, the Pakistani official said. AIP, an alternative to batteries, allows longer periods of running submerged.

Pakistan's third and last Agosta boat is being fitted with a Mesma AIP system, and the two earlier boats will be retrofitted. Pakistan has not asked for the Scorpene because it does not want to buy the same product as the Indian Navy.

DCN barely made any money on the Agosta deal, the French defense official said. He said it was unlikely the French government would agree to sell new subs at basement prices, the official said.

Pakistan said it got a bad deal because it paid $1.2 billion for the three subs, including a 50 percent down payment on signing in 1994, and the program is three years late.

Independence from Spain

If a Pakistan deal can be struck, DCN would regain the ability to export subs without Spanish participation.

In 1997, the French company partnered with Navantia predecessor Bazan to design the Scorpene because it lacked enough money to do it alone.

But healthy sales have padded DCN's cash accounts to some 2 billion euros ($2.4 billion), giving it enough money to invest in its own design.

Still, the Spanish connection was key to selling Scorpene to Chile, which opened up the Latin American market. But when Navantia installed a
combat management system from Lockheed Martin, DCN officials took the rejection of a similar French system as a snub.

One French analyst said Navantia's purchase of the Lockheed system was influenced by the U.S. administration, which is seeking a way to keep its 2001 pledge to sell eight diesel subs to Taiwan. Since Spain has limited trade with China, Madrid could sell the S-80s to Taiwan with little economic consequences, the analyst said.

Into the balance must be thrown France's relations with India, which has just bought six Scorpene subs armed with MBDA anti-ship missiles.

French President Jacques Chirac visited India and signed a defense agreement on Feb. 19 aimed at boosting industrial cooperation, as well as a
preliminary pact to help New Delhi develop civil nuclear energy. During Chirac's visit, India's state airline formally inked a purchase of 43 Airbus airliners, worth $2.5 billion at list price, and 15 ATR regional turboprops.

Dassault Aviation is waiting to see the terms of India's tender for 126 combat aircraft, and is ready to pitch the Rafale fighter jet, having withdrawn the Mirage 2000-5 from competition.

Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report from Washington.

 

[Kaiser]

Thats a real old article were better off making predictions from the recent janes article

 

[Quwa]

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=89560&postcount=34

According to this news article by Business Recorder, the PN requires another six new SSKs - either the DCN Marlin or HDW U-214. Besides France who has already approved negotiations with Pakistan - Germany will likely follow thanks to Pakistan's relations with Western Europe and U.S. When you negotiate with the U.S - you tend to get a lot of folks trying to negotiate with you.