France not happy that Switzerland choses F35s over Rafales.

[Invicta]

But that's just a difference in mindset and policy. For example,the Soviets/Russians used to make extremely robust but simplistic products. The Germans,extremely fine-tuned but mechanically complex etc etc.
A lot of luxury companies do the same,because for example you mentioned Cartier. They raise the prices to crazy heights,the Italians do it,the Americans do it (cars,clothes,electronics)...well the only ones who currently don't do it are the Chinese.

In an open market you have to be competitive, how on this damned earth can you justify charging someone $66 odd billions for 12 subs. Just in numbers that equates to £5.5 billion per sub. Even when you take into account service life costs etc that is an absurd amount of money for Diesel subs.

You misunderstood my example for Cartier, say I want a watch, chronograph to be precise, I ask Cartier to make on for me, their normal cost is $6k but because I want a chronograph they will charge me $24k. Then Breitling come along and say hey look at this watch its better than a chronograph for $8k. Now why will I entertain Cartier - a watch is a watch, a sub is a sub, pound for pound the French were milking the Aussies.

 

[Foinikas]

Switzerland had a care free attitude in earlier times but not now.

But why not now?

 

[Riz]

Pak should provide SAMs to libyan rebels to shot down french rafales over Tripoli and embarrassed them internationally

 

[Great Janjua]

Pak should provide SAMs to libyan rebels to shot down french rafales over Tripoli and embarrassed them internationally

Yh our imaginary sams

 

[LeGenD]

I don't know understand all this hate for the French by many members in this forum. I mean I'm not a fanatic supporter of theirs,but with the developments in the area the last 2-3 years and seeing how the Germans,Russians and some others either supported the Turks or remained neutral,for me it's a chance to finally have an alliance and buy some quality equipment.

If you dislike the French,well ok,sure but how can you say all that stuff when the Americans have been the biggest weapon pushers in the world for decades. And they are the ones who get sour the most when a country doesn't buy their weapons and doesn't honor their deals.
They've proven that many times since the Cold War. Plus you know what they've done to Pakistan at times of war!
Meanwhile the French stood by Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War so much,they supplied them and even supported them diplomatically.
Were they making money out of it? Of course! Everyone makes money by selling weapons and equipment to countries,but the question is if they stay with you and continue as friends or go like the Americans and say "Well...we've helped you enough,now we're leaving".

Or in the case of Pakistan "Buy our weapons! But if you go to war,we won't sell you any spare parts or ammunition!"

Yes,the French often have high prices,yes they are often weird when it comes to deals,but you have to admit they're making quality stuff. You buy what you pay for. Are there alternatives? Of course. But don't sign a 90 billion deal and then say "Forget it,I'll go with the Americans" as if you're some child that was given candy. Remember in TOTAL WAR games,when you sign a treaty with someone and the next round you go and ignore it? That faction's pissed off at you.

Now the Americans are trying to take contracts from the French in many countries. In Morocco,in Greece,they already did it in Switzerland,but then again,other European countries lost there. Like I've said,the Americans have been pressing the Greek government to buy MMSC and now there's a rumor about Ticonderogas. They refused to give us Arleigh Burkes again and it's not clear if they will give us any SSM-2s if we get the MMSC.

It's only logical that the French see this as an attack by a long-time ally,who has also dragged them to his wars many times.

Edit: And the funny thing is,that most of the hate is coming from Pakistanis who live in Britain

The French are controversial for the Charlie Hebdo stuff (making fun of everybody) and hypocritical stances for Muslims in their homeland.

The French also have a history of oppressing Africans. Libya was the latest victim.

French goods are expensive to procure as well. This is in part due to French manufacturing shortfalls.

PAK-US relations are a lot to be desired no doubt. USA did not support Pakistan in times of war with India and the Pressler Amendment stung as well.

But there were also times in which Americans supported Pakistan. When USSR invaded Afghanistan, Pakistan was in a tough spot. USA came to our rescue (Operation Cyclone), and supplied F-16s which were cutting edge at the time. PAF became capable of thwarting Soviet and Afghan intrusions into Pakistani airspace by extension.

War On Terror provided sufficient opportunity to revamp F-16 fleet of PAF. This capability proved useful in the recent Operation Swift Retort to counter Indians in Kashmir.

Pakistan could also avail IMF bailout packages from time to time to keep its struggling economy afloat. This is not possible without American nod.

USAID have contributed to numerous projects in Pakistan.

USA is also one of the greatest EXPORTS destination for Pakistani goods.

Some members of PDF are not appreciative of the aforementioned but Pakistani establishment knows better.

French-Pakistani trade is largely limited to consumer items in the present. France offers its big ticket items to only India in the region because India have much deeper pockets. Turkey upgraded Agosta 90B submarines of PN instead.

In the face of Charlie Hebdo controversy, there were significant protests in Pakistan (led by TLP). GOP was in a predicament but Pakistani Public rejected extreme TLP demands. This is the National Grit of Pakistan.

France needs introspection to be honest. But Emmaneul Macron is in hubris.

 

[Invicta]

France needs introspection to be honest. But Emmaneul Macron is in hubris.

Summing up the French problem in one line

 

[redtom]

Between the F-35 and rafale, you should always choose the F-35. The French should launch their own 5th generation fighter instead of letting the F-35 destroy European aviation.

 

[Foinikas]

The French are controversial for the Charlie Hebdo stuff (making fun of everybody) and hypocritical stances for Muslims in their homeland.

That is understandable. That "magazine" is hateful and blasphemous towards all religions and has absolutely no respect for people's beliefs no matter the faith. They even mocked the dead Russians who were shot down by the same terrorists they themselves used to mock as a magazine.

The French also have a history of oppressing Africans. Libya was the latest victim.

Eh,that's why muslims and specifically Arabs here are sour about them

French goods are expensive to procure as well. This is in part due to French manufacturing shortfalls.

I know they need to improve their shipbuilding capacity,the rest I can't say. It's not that I don't believe you,I just don't know. But they do have quality products and specifically in the military sector.

But there were also times in which Americans supported Pakistan. When USSR invaded Afghanistan, Pakistan was in a tough spot. USA came to our rescue (Operation Cyclone), and supplied F-16s which were cutting edge at the time. PAF became capable of thwarting Soviet and Afghan intrusions into Pakistani airspace by extension.

Well haven't Americans contributed a lot to all of us? I'm talking about the non-communist or neutral countries of the Cold War. But you know they can be very annoying often.Sometimes they keep pushing for old equipment to be bought by a country,other times they keep insisting that you buy their brand new weapon be it a tank,an aircraft,an AA system,ship or rifle. They've ruined deals before to many countries. Remember how Engesa went bankrupt after Saudi Arabia chose the Abrams instead of the Osorio,even though they had declared the Osorio was the best tank?

They've done it with the FN FAL,by pushing for NATO to stay with 7,62x51mm which forced the Belgians to modify the FAL to 7,62x51 for mass production and then a few years later the Americans changed to 5,56x45. They did it again when the Leopard came out as the winner between the Abrams and the Leopard 2,they chose to go their way and make their own tank instead of having a single model for NATO. Politics,interests,money,prestige...all that is the reason.

In the face of Charlie Hebdo controversy, there were significant protests in Pakistan (led by TLP). GOP was in a predicament but Pakistani Public rejected extreme TLP demands. This is the National Grit of Pakistan.

France needs introspection to be honest. But Emmaneul Macron is in hubris.

I'm into the whole "Liberte Fraternite Egalite" French Republic thing. I like and prefer the old Royal France,the ancien regime,the Christian France. There are still millions of pious and devout Catholic French,but unfortunately,like in most countries of Western,Central and North Europe,atheism,agnosticism and leftist politics are the majority now...

Between the F-35 and rafale, you should always choose the F-35. The French should launch their own 5th generation fighter instead of letting the F-35 destroy European aviation.

Choose the F-35? Can your pocket take it? On paper the F-35 is supposed to be impressive,but is it really? For me personally,the Rafale seems more "real". Would I be saying the same if Greece got some F-35s? I don't know. We'd have to test it. We'd have to check out how good it against the Turks. All the rest is just theory. The F-5,the Mirage F1CG,theMirage 2000,the F-16,the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2...all these were tested against the THK and others in real situations and they proved great aircraft.

Pak should provide SAMs to libyan rebels to shot down french rafales over Tripoli and embarrassed them internationally

The Turks had HAWK and probably Korkut and Stinger as well there. It didn't stop the UAE,Egyptians and Russians from operating

 

[DJ_Viper]

It is not getting any better for the French with their military Sales. Baby not happy...

https://sputniknews.com/20210919/france-denies-cancelling-summit-with-swiss-president-over-jet-ordering-debacle-1089212329.html

The French are getting bad news almost on weekly basis. Similar situation like the one we witnessed with Australia. In this case, another superior product won the deal. -35 is much superior to the Rafale. It's time for the French to focus on other markets. No country would turn down -35 being offered, over Rafale.

 

[aakash_2410]

France not happy with life atm it seems.

 

[redtom]

really? For me personally,the Rafale seems more "real". Would I be saying the same if Greece got some F-35s? I don't know. We'd have to test it. We'd have to check out how good it against the Turks. All the rest is just theory. The F-5,the Mirage F1CG,theMirage 2000,the F-16,the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2...all these were tested against the THK and others in real situations and they proved great aircraft.

Believe me, 5th and 4th generation fighters are totally different things. The F-35 may not have much in the way of flight performance, but the electronics and stealth advantages are still huge. Both China and the United States have leaked information to prove this point.

 

[LeGenD]

Well haven't Americans contributed a lot to all of us? I'm talking about the non-communist or neutral countries of the Cold War. But you know they can be very annoying often.Sometimes they keep pushing for old equipment to be bought by a country,other times they keep insisting that you buy their brand new weapon be it a tank,an aircraft,an AA system,ship or rifle. They've ruined deals before to many countries. Remember how Engesa went bankrupt after Saudi Arabia chose the Abrams instead of the Osorio,even though they had declared the Osorio was the best tank?

They've done it with the FN FAL,by pushing for NATO to stay with 7,62x51mm which forced the Belgians to modify the FAL to 7,62x51 for mass production and then a few years later the Americans changed to 5,56x45. They did it again when the Leopard came out as the winner between the Abrams and the Leopard 2,they chose to go their way and make their own tank instead of having a single model for NATO. Politics,interests,money,prestige...all that is the reason.

Politics and military procurements go hand in hand. Another case study for reference below.

Pakistan May Revise Attack Helicopter Procurement Plans

With the US unwilling to subsidize Pakistan’s AH-1Z order or approve Turkey’s re-export licenses for the T129, the Pakistan Army may look at China’s Z-10ME as an alternative.

quwa.org

As far as trials are concerned, some countries do not make relevant reports public. In this way, public scrutiny can be avoided.

In regards to main battle tanks, M1 Abrams is a combat proven platform and provides much room for retrofits and improvements. Decades have passed but the structure of this main battle tank continues to show its worth. While other countries rolled out a new generation main battle tanks, Americans found it easy to produce a solid counter to any such in the form of M1A2C.

Following are important factors:

1. Budget
2. International image

If you have both, multiple suppliers will be at your door to sell you their stuff. Choices are easy in this case.

Some countries do not have such luxury however.

Choose the F-35? Can your pocket take it? On paper the F-35 is supposed to be impressive,but is it really? For me personally,the Rafale seems more "real". Would I be saying the same if Greece got some F-35s? I don't know. We'd have to test it. We'd have to check out how good it against the Turks. All the rest is just theory. The F-5,the Mirage F1CG,theMirage 2000,the F-16,the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2...all these were tested against the THK and others in real situations and they proved great aircraft.

More "real" in what sense?

The Plane That Plays a Leading Role in Israel’s Shadow War on Terror

The fifth generation F-35 fighter jet is playing a game-changing role in Israel’s ongoing campaign to disrupt the activities of the radical Iranian axis in the Middle East.

besacenter.org

Satellite images show damage at Damascus airport after Israeli raids

Storehouses and radar systems said destroyed in strikes, which reportedly killed 21

www.timesofisrael.com

Assessing the Deterrence Value of the F-35 in Syria

Humayun Hassan is an undergraduate student at National University of Sciences and Technology, Pakistan. His areas of research interests include 5th and 6th generation warfare and geopolitics of the Le

www.realcleardefense.com

Air Force F-15s, F-35s dump 80,000 pounds of bombs on Iraqi island

The U.S.-led coalition countering ISIS in Iraq and Syria dumped 80,000 pounds of bombs on Qanus Island in Iraq on Tuesday to prevent the Islamic State from using the island as a source of refuge.

www.airforcetimes.com

It is "real" enough.

 

[Foinikas]

More "real" in what sense?

Well it feels more...how can I say this,more "robust",more tested,more non-space age futuristic alchemy nor hyped super-fighter like the F-35 is for example. But then again...the Raptor was a success and the F-35s an American 5th generation stealth fighter from the same company,so it might be as potent. Even though it's been a controversial project for years.

 

[vostok]

Time to France to show America middle finger and leave NATO.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Time to France to show America middle finger and leave NATO.

Are we going to witness the beginning of the end of NATO? These are interesting days we live in. The USA is not overly concerned about the Russian threat and i guess it figures the EU lot should take care of Russia. If the French leave - I can see the USA leaving aswell - then what is left?