Personally I wish Pakistan would ditch the "West" when it comes to military equipment.
Why? Because they lost deals in a backstabbing manner by countries who were supposed to be allies and for which they have gone to war in the past decades? Can you look at it from their perspective too? You've signed a deal for 54 billion euros and suddenly it's cancelled because the other country decided to go American and then you find out that this whole thing had been going on for a while.
What's the pattern?
The French need to learn that they cannot milk everyone like they used too. There is no arms deal where they have stupidly raised costs to cover for their own manufacturing shortfalls. This is only going to get worse for them. Forget defense deals even general machinery prices rocket up if the manufacturer is French. The Germans, Japanese, USA, UK and even Russia and China have better manufacturing practices which helps keep the cost low if there are design or scope changes.
The Frenchies are trying to be uncle Sam 2.0 but end up forgetting their piss poor history of being used as rug mats by the Germans.
Macron thinks of himself as a modern day Napoleon that is why there is such posturing, They have elections soon as well and he is likely to find it very difficult this year. They have had the yellow vest protests that most of the main stream media didn't report on. Their farmers were on strike recently and now their defense industry is threatened it's not looking very promising for him and France.
Well, I can't say he doesn't deserve it. He surely does and more.
It is not hate from me, pure bewilderment at their erratic immature behavior, They have not learnt or adapted (manufacturing etc) like the rest of the world has. Not everyone wants to buy Cartier some people just want a functioning watch, just because you are French does not entitle you to raise costs willy nilly.I don't know understand all this hate for the French by many members in this forum. I mean I'm not a fanatic supporter of theirs,but with the developments in the area the last 2-3 years and seeing how the Germans,Russians and some others either supported the Turks or remained neutral,for me it's a chance to finally have an alliance and buy some quality equipment.
If you dislike the French,well ok,sure but how can you say all that stuff when the Americans have been the biggest weapon pushers in the world for decades. And they are the ones who get sour the most when a country doesn't buy their weapons and doesn't honor their deals.
They've proven that many times since the Cold War. Plus you know what they've done to Pakistan at times of war!
Meanwhile the French stood by Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War so much,they supplied them and even supported them diplomatically.
Were they making money out of it? Of course! Everyone makes money by selling weapons and equipment to countries,but the question is if they stay with you and continue as friends or go like the Americans and say "Well...we've helped you enough,now we're leaving".
Or in the case of Pakistan "Buy our weapons! But if you go to war,we won't sell you any spare parts or ammunition!"
Yes,the French often have high prices,yes they are often weird when it comes to deals,but you have to admit they're making quality stuff. You buy what you pay for. Are there alternatives? Of course. But don't sign a 90 billion deal and then say "Forget it,I'll go with the Americans" as if you're some child that was given candy. Remember in TOTAL WAR games,when you sign a treaty with someone and the next round you go and ignore it? That faction's pissed off at you.
Now the Americans are trying to take contracts from the French in many countries. In Morocco,in Greece,they already did it in Switzerland,but then again,other European countries lost there. Like I've said,the Americans have been pressing the Greek government to buy MMSC and now there's a rumor about Ticonderogas. They refused to give us Arleigh Burkes again and it's not clear if they will give us any SSM-2s if we get the MMSC.
It's only logical that the French see this as an attack by a long-time ally,who has also dragged them to his wars many times.
Edit: And the funny thing is,that most of the hate is coming from Pakistanis who live in Britain
The hate for France is tenable. They are no less bad than uncle sam. Hence, are viewed through the same lens. As for the equipment they sell, yes, it is world-class. however, the thing members of my kin are pointing out is the butthurt by Frenchies. The defence industry is a competitive market, what the Frenchies are perpetrating is forceful auctioning. they are pushing nations to buy their overpriced equipment. I can't say the hate is not justified.I don't know understand all this hate for the French by many members in this forum. I mean I'm not a fanatic supporter of theirs,but with the developments in the area the last 2-3 years and seeing how the Germans,Russians and some others either supported the Turks or remained neutral,for me it's a chance to finally have an alliance and buy some quality equipment.
If you dislike the French,well ok,sure but how can you say all that stuff when the Americans have been the biggest weapon pushers in the world for decades. And they are the ones who get sour the most when a country doesn't buy their weapons and doesn't honor their deals.
They've proven that many times since the Cold War. Plus you know what they've done to Pakistan at times of war!
Meanwhile the French stood by Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War so much,they supplied them and even supported them diplomatically.
Were they making money out of it? Of course! Everyone makes money by selling weapons and equipment to countries,but the question is if they stay with you and continue as friends or go like the Americans and say "Well...we've helped you enough,now we're leaving".
Or in the case of Pakistan "Buy our weapons! But if you go to war,we won't sell you any spare parts or ammunition!"
Yes,the French often have high prices,yes they are often weird when it comes to deals,but you have to admit they're making quality stuff. You buy what you pay for. Are there alternatives? Of course. But don't sign a 90 billion deal and then say "Forget it,I'll go with the Americans" as if you're some child that was given candy. Remember in TOTAL WAR games,when you sign a treaty with someone and the next round you go and ignore it? That faction's pissed off at you.
Now the Americans are trying to take contracts from the French in many countries. In Morocco,in Greece,they already did it in Switzerland,but then again,other European countries lost there. Like I've said,the Americans have been pressing the Greek government to buy MMSC and now there's a rumor about Ticonderogas. They refused to give us Arleigh Burkes again and it's not clear if they will give us any SSM-2s if we get the MMSC.
It's only logical that the French see this as an attack by a long-time ally,who has also dragged them to his wars many times.
Edit: And the funny thing is,that most of the hate is coming from Pakistanis who live in Britain
But that's just a difference in mindset and policy. For example,the Soviets/Russians used to make extremely robust but simplistic products. The Germans,extremely fine-tuned but mechanically complex etc etc.
They stood by Saddam very much during the Iran-Iraq War,if you read Pierre Razoux's book you'll see what I mean. And they only reluctantly joined the 1991 war if I remember correctly. The thing is that now,the French are trying to wake the other Europeans up and have a really Euro-centric EU,away from German dominance and American pressure. I'm not saying it will work,I'm just saying,so many countries are in the EU but most have their own foreign policy,friends and enemies and many don't agree with each other. And it's true that the Americans have A LOT of influence on European countries,to the point that sometimes you ask "What are we doing here? Why did we even unite? Is this EU or just the european NATO branch?"
Man,of course it's a free market! Of course everyone competes. But when you have a signed deal of that much money,of that amount and it just...gets ruined like that,when it's said and done and you find out your "allies" have been planning this for months,it's natural you'll get angry and that there will be diplomatic and economic consequences for AUS and USA
Some years ago,I might have said "I don't care,they're all the same". But you know what's been happening here lately and since Sarkozy,the French had tried to help us(and make a profit out of it too of course,it's logical),especially when the Germans were stepping on our throats during economic crisis period. A lot of people despised the Germans for how they treated us during the worst years of the crisis,because they knew for decades about the financial situation of the country and their megaconglomerates and companies were involved in scandals here,bribing politicians to get big deals. And when the crisis started they were like "We don't know anything,pay up."
Well of course! But the irony is that Pakistanis who live in Britain defend them but at the same time nag about the British Raj and colonialism and British policies in the subcontinent etc etc
Switzerland had a care free attitude in earlier times but not now.
Exactly that. Why does Switzerland need F-35s? And Patriots? Patriots ok,it's an Air Defence system,it's ok. But F-35s? They had F/A-18s,why didn't they choose to upgrade them? Why not buy some new Gripens or F-15s or F-16s? They even had F-5s and now they want a stealth fighter?
I get your point but frankly I stand by mine to. So let's agree to disagree. As for greece, there is nothing but love from me. Since it's my 3rd home.But that's just a difference in mindset and policy. For example,the Soviets/Russians used to make extremely robust but simplistic products. The Germans,extremely fine-tuned but mechanically complex etc etc.
A lot of luxury companies do the same,because for example you mentioned Cartier. They raise the prices to crazy heights,the Italians do it,the Americans do it (cars,clothes,electronics)...well the only ones who currently don't do it are the Chinese.
They stood by Saddam very much during the Iran-Iraq War,if you read Pierre Razoux's book you'll see what I mean. And they only reluctantly joined the 1991 war if I remember correctly. The thing is that now,the French are trying to wake the other Europeans up and have a really Euro-centric EU,away from German dominance and American pressure. I'm not saying it will work,I'm just saying,so many countries are in the EU but most have their own foreign policy,friends and enemies and many don't agree with each other. And it's true that the Americans have A LOT of influence on European countries,to the point that sometimes you ask "What are we doing here? Why did we even unite? Is this EU or just the european NATO branch?"
Man,of course it's a free market! Of course everyone competes. But when you have a signed deal of that much money,of that amount and it just...gets ruined like that,when it's said and done and you find out your "allies" have been planning this for months,it's natural you'll get angry and that there will be diplomatic and economic consequences for AUS and USA
Some years ago,I might have said "I don't care,they're all the same". But you know what's been happening here lately and since Sarkozy,the French had tried to help us(and make a profit out of it too of course,it's logical),especially when the Germans were stepping on our throats during economic crisis period. A lot of people despised the Germans for how they treated us during the worst years of the crisis,because they knew for decades about the financial situation of the country and their megaconglomerates and companies were involved in scandals here,bribing politicians to get big deals. And when the crisis started they were like "We don't know anything,pay up."
Also the Germans,as you know,have been traditionally pro-Turkish and with all of Erdogan's provocations the last 2-3 years,they were very silent or even pro-Turkish,so that pissed off a lot of people in Greece. So there came the French and a chance for an alliance or at least a chance to buy some good weapons after a period of big stagnation in the Armed Forces.
But the Americans are pressing hard. And frankly,after seeing what Trump did to the Kurds and Putin to the Armenians...I prefer to have the French as good friends and allies. Now would they fight for us? Probably not. Probably only if their interests were in danger. But that's politics and it's sufficient.
Well of course! But the irony is that Pakistanis who live in Britain defend them but at the same time nag about the British Raj and colonialism and British policies in the subcontinent etc etc
