France in Talks with Malaysia for Rafales

[syedali73]

That's fair enough, but I'm not talking from a position of ignorance. The lines between church and state have blurred since the election in 2013.

However, I will accept your answer as being valid.

Is that right? The so-called Islamic Party PAS actually lost some support in 2013 elections. Total national seats won by the PAS in 2008 were 23, which reduced to 21 (of 222) in 2013 elections. Only two states i.e. Kelantan and Terengganu are under PAS control and it remains so for a very long period of time. PAS has made no gains since 1999, in fact sustained losses.

 

[SrNair]

Still, it is overpriced, for Rafales. You understand that the cost of a F-35II A is $100 million, right?

Rafales are medium quality fighters, judging from their performance specs.

The French are laughing all the way to the bank.

Wrong .That is combined life cycle costs expenses for its life time.Plus almost most modern ToT.
A foreign reports mentioned it as a squeezing of French by Indians.Our Babus are not that stupid.
On topic:If it happenes the price of Rafale again goes down.Good for us

 

[Aepsilons]

Wrong .That is combined life cycle costs expenses for its life time.Plus almost most modern ToT.
A foreign reports mentioned it as a squeezing of French by Indians.Our Babus are not that stupid.
On topic:If it happenes the price of Rafale again goes down.Good for us

Alright, for the sake of argument, I will concede my position.

But permit me to ask another question, why did India choose the Rafales over say the Eurofighter, Gripen, or why not just purchase more Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs ? I thought that the Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs were popular in the Indian Air Force.

 

[Speeder 2]

They're charging the Indians Government $20 Billion for 126 units of Rafales. That's a cost of $158 million (US Dollars) per plane. That's ridiculous and absolutely high way robbery.

Comparatively,

The US F-35IIAs costs $100 million per plane.

China's Chengdu J-10 costs $30 million per plane.

Sweden's JAS 39 Gripen costs $68 million per plane.

JF-17 would probably cost 30m. J-10A would be sth like 60m for export, in the ball park of Gripen.

Paying anything more than 100m for a Rafale is a joke.

 

[syedali73]

Certain posters got a very wrong idea about ToT. One can buy technology for use but cant get it transferred. French will transfer technical knowhow to maintain the fighters, may allow to integrate some avionics or armaments and that is about it. No matter how much one pays, French (or anyone else for that matter) are not going to let go the THE knowledge, which they have used to build marvels such as Rafale.

 

[alaungphaya]

Is that right? The so-called Islamic Party PAS actually lost some support in 2013 elections. Total national seats won by the PAS in 2008 were 23, which reduced to 21 (of 222) in 2013 elections. Only two states i.e. Kelantan and Terengganu are under PAS control and it remains so for a very long period of time. PAS has made no gains since 1999, in fact sustained losses.

Yes, really. The results of the Islamist party is irrelevant when the ruling party is shifting its policies to the right to attract those very voters. But this is not the thread for this discussion so I will say no more on Malaysian politics unless on another thread.

 

[SrNair]

Alright, for the sake of argument, I will concede my position.

But permit me to ask another question, why did India choose the Rafales over say the Eurofighter, Gripen, or why not just purchase more Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs ? I thought that the Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs were popular in the Indian Air Force.

Indian AirForce follows a heavy,medium,light line.
Su-30MKI is a heavy class fighter of more than 30 tons and enormous RCS.When we bought Su from Russia ,it was a fair deal with reasonable costs and full ToT.But recent years its maintenance work is become more expensive more than 100% of real fighter costs. We cant ignore it is late 90s tech we included most advanced avionics that is why we avoid Su35 because due to addition of good avionics is MKI became almost equal to Su 35.
This heavy class fighter cant use for SEAD operation because of its size.
Our govt also interested in long range fighter .Su 30 MKI can pass all this criteria except itts RCS and heavy class.
That is why they are going to induct Dassault Rafale.IAF have good impression about French system.Mirage 2000 of French was the real hero of Operation Safed Sagar during Kargil war period.Technically both Rafale and Mirage have a lot of similarities since it is from same company.
Geopolitics also played in here very well.EFT is a 4 nation consortitum and of course we cant guarantee their combinrd cooperation in future and we already have a bitter experience one member nation Italy.
But Rafale's only owner is French.
Among the contenders EFT and Rafale are much better than others be it in range ,technology or ToT.
Gripen is not a match for Rafale.US products have too much strings .Russians Mig 35 is out dated.
IAF is also much impressed with Spectre avionics of Rafale.
EFT is more expensive than Rafale but dont have AESA radar.
Saudi AF have EFT and you know the relation with Saudi and our westrrn neighbour and in turn northern neighbour.
So Rafale is the right choice.

 

[powastick]

@powastick

How are Malay-US relations? Do they approve arms sales to Malaysia?

1. Goverment fairly Good. Population not so good.

2. Small arms like M16 and M4. Aircraft like F-18.

Selling us F-35 is like selling F-35 to Taiwan.

Malay have a proverb, "Dua gajah berlawan, mati pelanduk di tengah". Two elephant fighting, a deer die in the middle. Unlikely Malaysia will take sides.

 

[waja2000]

Final deal will be Rafale vs F18, but Gripen is underdog due to offer Lease option. Eurofigther also offer lease and buy later option.
Rafale a bit more expensive than F/A18 Advance Super hornet. but F18 own by Malaysia AF give many argument over politic and malaysian due to US control over jet on fire control and type weapon (like AIM120). that why pass 15 year Malaysia only buy France/russia weapon. After MH17 tragedy hard for Malaysia to buy Russia military weapon.

Example major Malaysia arm procurement pass 10 year
- Helicopter EC725 France,
- Submarine Scorpene (DCNS France)
- A400M transportation aircraft Airbus France
- Radar system Thales Ground Master 400 France
- DCNS Gowind frigate France
- 8x8 APC Pars Turkey

Other possible procurement
- Tiger Helicopter
- C295 MPA
- ASW Helicopter Possible NH90 or AW159

 

[GR!FF!N]

They're charging the Indians Government $20 Billion for 126 units of Rafales. That's a cost of $158 million (US Dollars) per plane. That's ridiculous and absolutely high way robbery.

Comparatively,

The US F-35IIAs costs $100 million per plane.

China's Chengdu J-10 costs $30 million per plane.

Sweden's JAS 39 Gripen costs $68 million per plane.

first,the cost isn't declared yet.

second,what you've been posted are speculative.first,5th lot F-35s cost nearly $250 million,its nowhere near $100 mil and possibly never going to be.

third,you're considering the flyaway cost.but for India's case,you're trying to get the total cost of aircrafts as well as initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production and life-time maintenance support .plus,they'll have to invest 50% of the cost in India.its not bloody costly.we've paid nearly $100 million for latest batches of SU-30 MKIs...

 

[Aepsilons]

second,what you've been posted are speculative.first,5th lot F-35s cost nearly $250 million,its nowhere near $100 mil and possibly never going to be.

The most recently contracted unit costs for Low Rate Initial Production lot 7 :

• F-35A: $98 million
• F-35B: $104 million
• F-35C: $116 million

An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars.

About: Fast Facts: Cost | F-35 Lightning II

 

[FaujHistorian]

Still, it is overpriced, for Rafales. You understand that the cost of a F-35II A is $100 million, right?

Rafales are medium quality fighters, judging from their performance specs.

The French are laughing all the way to the bank.

Good points.

Sadly you cannot convince Rafale fanboys here.

 

[Aepsilons]

Good points.

Sadly you cannot convince Rafale fanboys here.

For the sake of argument, I'll concede. Maybe the Rafales are just what the Indian Air Force needs, irrespective of my personal objection of price.

 

[C130]

They're charging the Indians Government $20 Billion for 126 units of Rafales. That's a cost of $158 million (US Dollars) per plane. That's ridiculous and absolutely high way robbery.

Comparatively,

The US F-35IIAs costs $100 million per plane.

China's Chengdu J-10 costs $30 million per plane.

Sweden's JAS 39 Gripen costs $68 million per plane.

we don't know what is all included in the deal for India and delays and more delays running the price up

if Malaysia buys them straight from France without ToT the other expenses would be supporting the Rafale and weapons the price should be cheaper than what India will pay

 

[FaujHistorian]

For the sake of argument, I'll concede. Maybe the Rafales are just what the Indian Air Force needs, irrespective of my personal objection of price.

I believe your argument carries a lot of weight even from Indian pov.

The thing is costly as heck.