France And The Radar Thieves

[sonicboom]

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France And The Radar Thieves

by James Dunnigan
March 6, 2010

India and the United States are pressuring France not to allow Pakistan to buy advanced radars and other electronics for the Pakistani built JF-17 jet fighter. This is because China did most of the development on the JF-17, and Chinese personnel would be involved in any effort to install French electronics in these aircraft. China has a brazen reputation for stealing foreign technology, and putting high tech French electronics into Pakistani JF-17s, is seen as just giving the stuff to China. Pakistan also has a reputation for passing on military technology it had promised to hold close.

While the Chinese steal a lot of technical information via Internet espionage, that's not as good as getting your hands on the actual hardware. Meanwhile, Pakistan wants to upgrade up to a hundred of its JF-17s this way, many of them for export. But France cannot just blow off Indian protests, as India is a much larger customer for French military equipment than Pakistan.

Pakistan recently activated its first JF-17 fighter squadron, which is stationed at an airbase outside Peshawar (the largest city in the tribal territories near the Afghan border.) The squadron, with twelve aircraft and twenty pilots, is the first of many. A year ago, Pakistan signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1). Several countries ordered the aircraft, or are negotiating to. Pakistan will replace its MiG-21s and Mirage IIIs with the low cost JF-17s.

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 uses the same Russian engine, the RD-93, that is used in the MiG-29. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 17,700 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped. China is still relatively new to aircraft design and development. To further complicate things, China is trying to keep up with aircraft technology that continues to advance, year by year. Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain, and do not function as effectively as the designers hoped. But both aircraft work, and can probably be more useful for ground support, than air superiority. Pakistan hopes to make the JF-17 more lethal by using more experienced pilots. That often works.

France And The Radar Thieves

 

[Luftwaffe]

China is still relatively new to aircraft design and development. To further complicate things, China is trying to keep up with aircraft technology that continues to advance, year by year. Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain, and do not function as effectively as the designers hoped. But both aircraft work, and can probably be more useful for ground support, than air superiority.
funniest ever...Mods close the thread..

 

[Arsalan]

Originally posted by sonicboom
China is still relatively new to aircraft design and development. To further complicate things, China is trying to keep up with aircraft technology that continues to advance, year by year. Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain, and do not function as effectively as the designers hoped. But both aircraft work, and can probably be more useful for ground support, than air superiority.

oh for God Sake!!!!
are you a ...........................??

 

[Tiger Awan]

I think so this topic is already bieng discussed in another thread. So plz either close it or merge it.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well China may not be such a big issue in this deal, as they with Israeli & Russian help have made good radar systems & French may not be that of a help to them, PAF using a Chinese one in JF-17 and as per my knowledge about the radar in it, is pretty good one compared to any western one in its class.

The real problem is, with french avionic, JF-17 becomes a very threatening low cost-high performance aircraft for many air forces around the world and that I believe is the main cause for others to show their concern as it will bring a big dent in the sales efforts of western manufacturers.

And these articles from such unknowable people are expected, as they make hue & cry, without knowing what they are talking about.

JF-17 is no way related to Mig-33 as said, this shows the efforts put in by the writer.

And the last 4-5 lines in the article speaks volume about the arrogance and the true intention of this article, to defame these Chinese fighter aircraft, as they are the new challengers on the market to the ever green western ones.

Writer's inexperience with Chinese avionics & aerospace achievements speak volume.

Just another day rubbish article, to defame and make a hue & cry, nothing else worth in it.

 

[faisalwali786]

Well J-10 is not in Pakistan Fleet yet but J-10 is considered among World's Best 10 of Jet Fighters

 

[Adios Amigo]

A very poorly written article in a failed attempt to spread anxiety and despair among the common public who are less aware of the ground realities and otherwise a laughing stock for defense experts. We all know who are behind such propaganda's and their wishful desires to malign Such strategic programs and our respective counties Image, which compels them to make these loud brain farts, far from reality and when ever possible.

The below mentioned blunders are only highlighted, to show the lack of knowledge and intentional bragging by the author. This is a master piece of his Frustration and not to believe the facts and realities.

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But France cannot just blow off Indian protests, as India is a much larger customer for French military equipment than Pakistan.

History has been contrary to that. Rafael is not the favorite for MMRCA, why would it be??? It does not hold political advantages attached, nor supreme capabilities to differentiate it from others, nor it has the cost advantage. Indians are eying on German U-boats rather then French offerings. So where does that leave them????

Pakistan recently activated its first JF-17 fighter squadron, which is stationed at an airbase outside Peshawar (the largest city in the tribal territories near the Afghan border.)

Its not the largest city of tribal territories, in fact its the Capital of North West Frontier Provence, and therefore a settled Area(A-area) and a major and significant city of Pakistan.

Other then that the questions arises what could be the intention behind mentioning (the largest city in the tribal territories near the Afghan border.) such a statement.

The squadron, with twelve aircraft and twenty pilots, is the first of many.

Wrong again, the squadron stared with Fourteen aircrafts initially. Shows lack of knowledge.

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter.

Wrong, a piece of crap. Every one knows Jf-17 was completed in a short time of four years. Mentioning 20 years only exhibits to prove the project a failure.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 uses the same Russian engine, the RD-93, that is used in the MiG-29.

wrong again, Jf-17 is 6-6.5 tons and not more then that. Thats why it is characterized as a light weight aircraft .

The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33.

Jealousy knows no boundaries. J-f17 has no relation with Mig-33. This propaganda has long been in circulation from the same quarters.

The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped.

This is really a laughing stock. Both fighters are known to have exceeded the expectations. Their exceptional performances are now drawing orders from around the world. If they were not good then why would have any one shown Interests in them.

China is still relatively new to aircraft design and development. To further complicate things, China is trying to keep up with aircraft technology that continues to advance, year by year.

Another arrow targeted at the stars,China is in this field for decades now, their made aircraft's are flying all around the world, with many airforces. Hell they are very close to making of advance fifth generation Aircraft. Expect the first flight from any where between April 2010 to 2011.

Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain, and do not function as effectively as the designers hoped.

Another very good one for a cracker. Both are known to be cheep and maintenance friendly and far better then competitors in this field.

But both aircraft work, and can probably be more useful for ground support, than air superiority.

God bless his ignorance and jealousy.











Adios

 

[mjnaushad]

Pakistan also has a reputation for passing on military technology it had promised to hold close.

If we had that habit we might be producing our own F 16 by now with a local name.

Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain

How come?

The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped.

Ohh really. Did you even touched JF 17 or J10.

Pakistan hopes to make the JF-17 more lethal by using more experienced pilots. That often works.

At least he accepted we make good pilots. I was expecting him to say "Pakistan is thinking of importing French pilots from which China will benefit."

 

[Materialistic]

India and the United States are pressuring France not to allow Pakistan to buy advanced radars and other electronics for the Pakistani built JF-17 jet fighter.

The pain in the @$$ that Pakistanis developed an aircraft and they are using it now and Tejas on the other hands are still going through test phases. US never had issues when China acquired fly-by-wire systems from Israel.!

The article is completely biased, on every next line there is a sense of Anti Pakistan & China sentiments.

While the Chinese steal a lot of technical information via Internet espionage, that's not as good as getting your hands on the actual hardware.

Thats some good piece of news, anyone who wants to partner me ???? Im going to start an aircraft manufacturing firm. I think the author is referring to some
How to make a an aircraft in your Home sort of e-book.

Also the author knows that the plane was not according to the expectations of designers.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

hahahaha that was a funny read

 

[DMLA]

Everyone knows how accurate (or the lack thereof) the articles from strategypage are . I am amazed that members here are spending time reading it !

I must add that they show the same kind of bias and bs when it comes to India or China

IMO, mods should ban articles from SP

 

[sonicboom]

Let me take a moment to thank taimikhan and adios amigo for their excellent rebuttal. I posted this article not as a derogatory but on a funny note as I was very amused when I read this and felt member might get kick out of it too. Not sure if it’s ignorance or jealousy or pure frustration on the part of the author that he went out of his way to find all kinds of negativity in JF-17. We all know that JF-17 is a fact and it’s there to stay. No wonder the west is getting heart burn and having hard time in accepting the success of JF-17 project. And lastly, please let’s not get angry or defensive as the capabilities of JF-17 will not be reduced if someone writes or talks negative about JF-17.

 

[Adios Amigo]

Sonic boom

Thank you for posting this Article. Its good for two reasons.

1) You get to know, that Projects like these are important and game changers and the adversaries are feeling the heat of it. Thats why they just cannot keep away from it and as an indicator makes assure that you have made the right decision, which has started paying off.


2) More importantly, when senior and knowledgeable posters like Taimi khan and a lot of other members starts ripping apart these kind of articles and dig out all the lice, the young and new members get to know the facts and realities and a lot of new and relevant information which might not be otherwise so easy to get.


Thanks.











Adios

 

[zagahaga]

thank mods ... i thought usa and india would have destroyed the deal ...... india looking at u boats?????? welll that means we need to get some marlies

 

[Peregrine]

Hi,
after writing this topic i hope its writer can get a good night sleep, by simply concluding that Chinese fighter jets haven't performed as they were expected too . BTW i am really amazed that if this article is true than why Chinese haven't copied Mirage, Puma and Agosta