Fourth Milgem Corvette launched for Pakistan Navy

[arslank03]

What was the wisdom in going for a Babur derivative when a more advanced Istanbul option was easily available?

we own the IP rights to it, its effectively our design with the right to do whatever we please with it

 

[MastanKhan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1686665582937071616

Hi,

Thanks for the video---. Haters would be hating more---and those who wanted proof-----------

And those who stated that Pak engineers are not capable---pak engineers do not bring anything to the table---. Oh well---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What was the wisdom in going for a Babur derivative when a more advanced Istanbul option was easily available?

I'd say one (I-Class vs. J-Class) isn't necessarily better than the other. To me, they're like parallel design streams managed by two different contractors (ASFAT A.S for J-Class and STM for I-Class).

ASFAT A.S was probably chosen because they (1) were willing to carry out redesign work on the MILGEM to add VLS and (2) develop a new frigate and help build up NRDI's capacity to manage big naval projects.

ASFAT A.S. is now building on the J-Class to offer larger designs, like AS3600 (tbh, I think it's a sign the PN will work on a larger frigate via a J-Class Batch II or Batch III).

 

[Tipu7]

ASFAT A.S. is now building on the J-Class to offer larger designs, like AS3600 (tbh, I think it's a sign the PN will work on a larger frigate via a J-Class Batch II or Batch III).

Loved the part in brackets ...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) Bro, I remember how you were so unjustly treated on PakDef when you put forward the idea of Pakistan collaborating and acquiring Turkish naval platforms...and look where we are today with Milgem, Jinnah Class, and potentially TFX?!!

tbh even I didn't expect Turkiye to advance as far as it did, or as quickly as it did. To me, collaborating with them on the TFX would've been like a 2045-2050 prospect. We slowly build up our capacity as we contribute, and we ride out any of the delays, setbacks, etc. But they're working to get there much earlier.

 

[sparten]

I'd say one (I-Class vs. J-Class) isn't necessarily better than the other. To me, they're like parallel design streams managed by two different contractors (ASFAT A.S for J-Class and STM for I-Class).

ASFAT A.S was probably chosen because they (1) were willing to carry out redesign work on the MILGEM to add VLS and (2) develop a new frigate and help build up NRDI's capacity to manage big naval projects.

ASFAT A.S. is now building on the J-Class to offer larger designs, like AS3600 (tbh, I think it's a sign the PN will work on a larger frigate via a J-Class Batch II or Batch III).

There was no need to get an Istanbul class in the presence of the Type054P or even the MLU Zulifqars
The Babar class fulfills a major role and releases the bigger girls for more important tasks.

 

[arslank03]

There was no need to get an Istanbul class in the presence of the Type054P or even the MLU Zulifqars
The Babar class fulfills a major role and releases the bigger girls for more important tasks.

type 054a's are not a ship fit for the combat needs of today and tomorrow.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There was no need to get an Istanbul class in the presence of the Type054P or even the MLU Zulifqars
The Babar class fulfills a major role and releases the bigger girls for more important tasks.

Yep, and one shouldn't underestimate the value of owning your own design. The PN can source the necessary inputs (e.g., steel, engines, etc) directly from the suppliers instead of working through the OEM. E.g., when we bought the Agosta 90Bs or even F-22Ps, we relied on materiel kits from the OEM, and the pricing was set by those parties (which are generally higher vs. sourcing from the suppliers directly).

Better yet, the PN can set up tenders for steel, engines, etc, and secure better deals all around. So, I wouldn't be surprised if say South Korea, for example, gets tapped for inputs in future PN ships. It's a lot easier for South Korea to send us steel or for Germany to send MTU engines or even US to send GE gas turbines than completed defence products.

 

[Areesh]

type 054a's are not a ship fit for the combat needs of today and tomorrow.

So you want to say that nearly all of PLAN frigates are not fit for combat needs of even today let alone tomorrow?

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

So you want to say that nearly all of PLAN frigates are not fit for combat needs of even today let alone tomorrow?

China has 40+ destroyers so these ships will operate under other advanced ships and type 54A's will be force multipliers.
Plus China has upgraded its own type 54's with advanced radars and other sensors.
Type 54 which PN bought is very low end ship in PLAN.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Plus China has upgraded its own type 54's with advanced radars and other sensors.
Type 54 which PN bought is very low end ship in PLAN.

Not at all! Infact PN Type-54A/Ps are more advance then PLAN Type 54As. Obviously PN specifically asked for those upgrades.

It is more superior than original version.

Below are some of the upgrades:
- Tughrils have more advanced SR-2410C AESA radar. Original ones have H/CJQ-382.
- Additional VHF radar
- Newer EW Suite
- Much more advanced CIWS (one of the fastest in the world) with independent radars.
- Instead of subsonic cruise missiles, it carries super-sonic cruise missiles.


Type-54A/Ps are PN's top ships at the moment. Baburs will provide additional capability with CAMM-ER (benefits of active radar vs SARH). Once PN receives HHQ-16FE upgrade then Tughrils will be the only ships in PN fleet providing long range / fleet wide air cover including the ports and sensitive locations. Unless PN gets hold of any other long range solution from western sources for Jinnah class. (which is highly unlikely)

Edit: PN Tughrils can be upgraded versions in other areas as well like Sonar etc. Also note, PLAN does have all those capabilities in their larger ships like advanced CIWS, VHF radar, supersonic missiles etc are available on their destroyers. They do not require their smaller ships (type-54As) to be tip of the spear. For us these ships are main surface combatants and I believe they will go further upgrades in terms of long range missiles in the future.

 

[Tipu7]

type 054a's are not a ship fit for the combat needs of today and tomorrow.

That's complete underestimation of 054A/Ps capabilities. 054 has increased anti-surface, anti-submarine, and anti-air warfare potential of PN by many folds. Many new generational systems have been introduced for first time: AESA radar, super-sonic cruise missile, VLS, and next gen EW suite.
PN has acquired 4 high-end warships (South Asian standards) just within six years. Look how long Indian warships are taking to hit water. In past, PN took decade to acquire four vessels with far less capability.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

That complete underestimation of 054A/Ps capabilities. 054 has increased anti-surface, anti-submarine, and anti-air warfare potential by many folds. Many new generational systems have been introduced for first time: AESA radar, super-sonic cruise missile, VLS, and next gen EW suite.
PN has acquired 4 high-end warships (South Asian standards) just within six years. Look how long Indian warships are taking to hit water. In past, PN took decade to acquire four vessels with far less capability.

True, the size and quality gap between IN and PN was becoming too much drastic. It was the ideal deal that we could have ever imagined. Giving PN the new capabilities which it never had. Ofcourse the ship is not the best in the world but please look at its cost & timelines.

We have to understand that PN needs numbers too. It will easily take a decade more to induct first Jinnah class frigate. We needed good sized fleet in the meantime with decent capability.

 

[arslank03]

So you want to say that nearly all of PLAN frigates are not fit for combat needs of even today let alone tomorrow?

That complete underestimation of 054A/Ps capabilities. 054 has increased anti-surface, anti-submarine, and anti-air warfare potential by many folds. Many new generational systems have been introduced for first time: AESA radar, super-sonic cruise missile, VLS, and next gen EW suite.
PN has acquired 4 high-end warships (South Asian standards) just within six years. Look how long Indian warships are taking to hit water. In past, PN took decade to acquire four vessels with far less capability.

Im not sure where your analyses has come from but:

"increased ASW capabilities"
Via the deletion of the towed array?

"increased AAW capabilities" have discussed this to death, wont do it again, feel free to scroll through the thread.

the ASuW suite is the only positive of the platform here, but even that is negligible, because what metric is that based off of lol. Its an abstract and useless statement.


The 054a is a platform that should have been inducted in place of F22P's. Yes, it brings an improvement to the PN's capabilities, but so would the PN inducting F-7s for fleet air defence.

The truth is the 054a is not sufficient for our threat environment and will likely be a sitting duck, albeit one that will go down with a little more of a fight than the other sitting ducks. Though, ironically if the f22p mlu recieves albatross and also a new asuw suite it will likely be a more capable platform in most ways than the 54a.

True, the size and quality gap between IN and PN was becoming too much drastic. It was the ideal deal that we could have ever imagined. Giving PN the new capabilities which it never had. Ofcourse the ship is not the best in the world but please look at its cost & timelines.

We have to understand that PN needs numbers too. It will easily take a decade more to induct first Jinnah class frigate. We needed good sized fleet in the meantime with decent capability.

the cost is the only benefit, because it was heavily subsidised by the chinese govt, still doesnt mean it is as great as its being hyped to be

 

[TheSolution]

Im not sure where your analyses has come from but:

"increased ASW capabilities"
Via the deletion of the towed array?

"increased AAW capabilities" have discussed this to death, wont do it again, feel free to scroll through the thread.

the ASuW suite is the only positive of the platform here, but even that is negligible, because what metric is that based off of lol. Its an abstract and useless statement.


The 054a is a platform that should have been inducted in place of F22P's. Yes, it brings an improvement to the PN's capabilities, but so would the PN inducting F-7s for fleet air defence.

The truth is the 054a is not sufficient for our threat environment and will likely be a sitting duck, albeit one that will go down with a little more of a fight than the other sitting ducks. Though, ironically if the f22p mlu recieves albatross and also a new asuw suite it will likely be a more capable platform in most ways than the 54a.


the cost is the only benefit, because it was heavily subsidised by the chinese govt, still doesnt mean it is as great as its being hyped to be

So is the PN looking to expand its capabilities further by inducting more superior platforms?