Four Britons plotted to bomb British army base using toy car.

[scholseys]

send the british gurkhas to tackle these toy cars

 

[DRaisinHerald]

These radical Pan-Islamists should ideally receive the death penalty but lucky for them there is no such thing here.

Come and give me the death penalty yourself then
I believe in Muslim Unity.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Come and give me the death penalty yourself then
I believe in Muslim Unity.

There is nothing wrong in believing in unity.Question is does it come at the expense of your adopted country?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are missing out a clear distinction.. In case of the 4 Pakistani origin Britons, and of the countless others muslims before them, there is a distinct organization using an extremist distortion of Islam to consciously nudge these young men towards making that choice, which makes it a case of successful recruitment.

Unlike the lone immoral American soldier who gave in to his immorality driven basic instincts..

You are correct that 'extremist organizations', such as AQ, act as enablers for Muslim men (and they are by no means 'countless', just as the incidents of American Military/contractor personnel raping and massacring innocent Muslims in occupied territories are not just a single 'lone soldier', but many) making a conscious decision to commit violence, but beyond that there is no distinction between them and the American Military personnel making a conscious decision to massacre and rape Muslims in countries under occupation. I would argue that while these military personnel may not necessarily subscribe to any particular organization, they are nonetheless motivated by a similar 'hatred/prejudice' of the 'other' (perhaps over perceived wrongs done against their nation/culture), that motivates 'extremist Muslims'.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

much of these jihadist draw their inspirations from the failed concept of pan-Islamism.

Really? Then mind enlightening me how believing in Religious Unity is responsible for this episode?

Also, it's Muslim Unity not "Pan-Islamism", you got the wrong term.

There is nothing wrong in believing in unity.Question is does it come at the expense of your adopted country?

No, it's not supposed to But some goons think it's some sort of Radical ideology meant to destroy the world.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Of course you are evading. Going by YOUR assumption that I am making generalizations, might as well apply the same argument to bank robbers and rapists.

Bank robbers and rapists do not fall in the same category as an extremist Muslim trying to blow up a train or American Military personnel massacring the local Muslim population because of the identities of the victims.

Again...I made no generalizations. I said that we cannot disavow a person's intellectual and moral foundations for his actions. What is the point of attacking an army base? Profits? Of what? Hostages? Now that would make the act clearly political and reveal their true natures. Make a statement? Now that is what making you uncomfortable.

What is the 'profit' in American Military personnel killing 17 Afghan civilians in cold blood, or planning the massacres of innocent men, women and children in an occupied Muslim territory? The motive on both sides is the same, hatred of the other, and not 'profit or sexual satisfaction' as could be argued in the case of an ordinary bank robber or rapist.

 

[lem34]

I feel compelled to come on here as a third generation British Pakistani and clarify a few points made on here.

1. I am concerned that some non British Pakistanis on here are so quick to disown us. We are just as proud of our roots as Italian Americans or Irish Americans of their European roots. It is not for you from UAE or American Pakistanis to suggest that we are in any way less than you Pakistanis. The reason my father took on British nationality was because when Pakistan left the commonwealth the British Govt's attitude was that we would be treated as aliens. I think it was Z Bhutto who in retaliation stated that Pakistan would allow us the privilege of dual nationals even if we were entitled and claimed British nationality. My family and I own property in UK and Pakistan. We have loyalties to both Pakistan and Britain. As it has been said you can write on a piece of paper fire a million times it will not burn. Yet a simple match is enough to light the paper. You can not simply erase the Pakistan that is etched on my heart by giving me a British passport. It would be naive and churlish for anyone to think anything else.

2. Some of you have come on here and made the point about people of British Pakistanis being less educated than American or Canadian Pakistanis. That may well have been the case for first generation British. It certainly is not true about following generations. I have over 250 second cousins in the UK and I can not for the life of me think of any that do not have at least one degree from a UK university. Along with that we have numerous professionals be they doctors, dentists lawyers etc

3. Some Indians, who I have all the answers for have also taken this as an opportunity to bash Pakistan. I used to have a relaxed view about Indians ( on a personal level I have lots of Indian friends in the UK) until I came on here on this forum and saw the hatred that some of you lot have for Pakistan. In fact I have decided to post less on here as I find your hatred revolting. Every nationality, every religion has it's share of nutters and or misguided frustrated fools. You can not take these actions as representative of Pakistanis or British or British Pakistanis. For you to do so is tantamount to racism. Let me tell you what i mean. I do not regard myself in any way an extremist. All life is sacrosanct to me. However if I am against for example the Iraq war or the Afghanistan war and am passionate that does not make me a terrorist nor a fanatic. You have to take into account that numerous polls here in the UK have shown that the majority of people of all origins were against these illegal acts. I know lots of my white English friends to hold the views that I have. Yet in their case Pakistan is not blamed.

4. And now who is to blame. About 12 miles away from Leeds there is a mosque that was funded by the Saudis in the late seventies. I think they donated about £2 million for building it. Alongside this there is also a Muslim school which they paid for as well. They made it part of the deal that would only pay for it if the teachers and Mullahs used would be supplied by them and propagate a very harsh form of Islam imo. They made a Mr Wahebs books standard. Some thirty years later to today if you go within a five mile radius of the mosque I see more women with a Burkha and men wearing Arabic dress than I would in Islamabad. This has been going on right under the nose of the British authorities. One of the London bombers I think the lead guy a Mr Siddique lived less than a mile from this mosque and was known to the people there and frequented this mosque. On top of this you can not forget that London was at one time known as Londonistan because the British govt was giving asylum to people wanted all over by their countries of origin for terrorist activities.

No one blames the British govt for its part in this. No one tries to blame Saudis but Pakistanis yes they are an easy target. Why?? Simply we are cursed with leaders hoisted on us under the name of the abortion known as democracy. Leaders who are bribed or bullied and who have assets in the west to bleed and humiliate Pakistanis everywhere.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

First I think you need to take a look again at your claim of minority ( numbers involved ) . Your minority numbers says 80% of your population according to a poll taken in Pakistan and posted here a while back on PDF, finds the citizenry sympathizes in some form with the terrorists and their agenda.

Please show me which poll shows 80% of Pakistanis supporting attacks on innocent civilians.

The polls I have seen show around the same percentage (80%) of Pakistanis opposing attacks on innocent civilians.

And the number of incidents of violence committed by US military personnel against local Muslims in occupied territories (only the ones we know of) are far more than a handful, and the perpetrators have largely gotten away with slaps on the wrist for their crimes under the American Military Justice System.

I understand you don't want to be associated with these guys when they do bad. But unfortunately for you they associate themselves proudly as Pakistani first then british. Ask your honest posters from Britain here and they will confirm and some have confirmed in the past that - they wear the Pakistani flag and heritage with pride and identify themselves as being first and fore most and live mostly among that community.

I don't care who they associate with, the fact of the matter is that if they were born and raised in the UK, the British society and system is what shaped them, not Pakistan or Pakistani society.

 

[RazPaK]

I don't care who they associate with, the fact of the matter is that if they were born and raised in the UK, the British society and system is what shaped them, not Pakistan or Pakistani society.

Agree with this part 100%.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I feel compelled to come on here as a third generation British Pakistani and clarify a few points made on here.

1. I am concerned that some non British Pakistanis on here are so quick to disown us. We are just as proud of our roots as Italian Americans or Irish Americans of their European roots. It is not for you from UAE or American Pakistanis to suggest that we are in any way less than you Pakistanis. The reason my father took on British nationality was because when Pakistan left the commonwealth the British Govt's attitude was that we would be treated as aliens. I think it was Z Bhutto who in retaliation stated that Pakistan would allow us the privilege of dual nationals even if we were entitled and claimed British nationality. My family and I own property in UK and Pakistan. We have loyalties to both Pakistan and Britain. As it has been said you can write on a piece of paper fire a million times it will not burn. Yet a simple match is enough to light the paper. You can not simply erase the Pakistan that is etched on my heart by giving me a British passport. It would be naive and churlish for anyone to think anything else.

Aryan,

If an individual consciously chooses to remain in touch with his culture and country, regardless of where he was born, then that does not fall in the same category as someone who was born and raised abroad, and then one day in his teens/twenties sees some extremist video and decides to go blow someone up in the name of Islam.

 

[VCheng]

............ if they were born and raised in the UK, the British society and system is what shaped them, not Pakistan or Pakistani society.

How about their own home maintaining its generations old outlook and the local masjid drawing inspiration from elsewhere, especially if kept walled away from British society at large, with no fruitful interaction or assimilation? What would you say their role could be in this?

 

[RazPaK]

How about their own home maintaining its generations old outlook and the local masjid drawing inspiration from elsewhere, especially if kept walled away from British society at large, with no fruitful interaction or assimilation? What would you say their role could be in this?

These teens are far away from regular Pakistani society the same as they are out of touch with their own society.

 

[VCheng]

................We have loyalties to both Pakistan and Britain.............

............... just as I am loyal to both my original and adopted countries?

Thank you for saying that it is indeed possible to achieve that balance.

These teens are far away from regular Pakistani society the same as they are out of touch with their own society.

I was referring to the home and masjid environments in UK.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How about their own home maintaining its generations old outlook and the local masjid drawing inspiration from elsewhere, especially if kept walled away from British society at large, with no fruitful interaction or assimilation? What would you say their role could be in this?

That certainly could lead to some very confused and troubled souls, if the children were not able to make sense of the two wildly different cultures they were being subjected to .... but even then individual traits/experiences/development would play a role in how any particular child/adult turns out ...

 

[RazPaK]

I was referring to the home and masjid environments in UK.

That's the UK's problem.