What's new

Forces Face Gun Crisis

Water Car Engineer

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
13,313
Reaction score
8
Country
United States
Location
India
Home Minister P. Chidambaram has mooted the creation of a centralised procurement board for buying small arms for the paramilitary forces. A miffed Chidambaram is understood to have suggested this after reports of deviations from tender norms surfaced in acquisitions of firearms by two paramilitary forces.
In March, the Border Security Force (BSF) signed a contract with Italian gun maker Beretta for buying 68,000 submachine guns worth over Rs 400 crore. The size of the deal raised eyebrows because few had heard of the Beretta weapon. Late last year, its sister service, the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), signed an order for the purchase of 12,000 X-95 Tavor carbines from Israel costing over Rs 1 lakh apiece. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Generous modernisation budgets after the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks mean that India's military, paramilitary and police personnel will import small arms worth over $3 billion (Rs 13,500 crore). Most of these imports of weapons performing similar security roles will be from different global arms manufacturers with nothing in common in terms of ammunition, spares and training. "In a few years, India is going to resemble a salad bowl of assorted weaponry, says a senior police official. The Mumbai police's Force One commandos, raised after the 26/11, have four different types of weapons-Colt M-4 carbines from the US, Brugger and Thomet submachine guns from Switzerland, MP-5 submachine guns from Germany and AK-47 variants from eastern Europe.

The force is already believed to have a problem importing ammunition for all these weapons, one of the dangers of such a diverse menagerie. "The US army is talking about inter-operability (similar weapons, ammunition) of weapons across continents, we are unable to achieve inter-operability even between our security forces," says Lieutenant General (retd) P.C. Katoch.

The Indian Army has begun looking for new carbines (a shorter version of an assault rifle) and assault rifles to replace its obsolete weaponry. A lip-smacking treat of over $2 billion (Rs 9,000 crore) for foreign arms companies eyeing a piece of the action awaits.
In India, little research goes into buying such weapons. There are virtually no experts who can study or evaluate small arms. The sole evaluating agency is the army's School of Infantry in Mhow, Madhya Pradesh, which the army uses for its own requirements. Army officials call for an apex government body comprising users and technical experts from various services. "They should evaluate weapons and recommend induction for all security forces," says an army officer. This is along the lines of what the home minister has suggested for the paramilitary forces.

"Despite fighting insurgency for over two decades, the army has not conducted a comprehensive analysis of firefights with militants or any research into the type of weapons or bullets required," admits a senior army official. Most reports filed by individual field officers after encounters disappear into military-bureaucratic black holes in Delhi. A few years ago, an officer questioned the lethality of the new special forces' Tavor assault rifles bought from Israel. A group of militants ambushed by the army got away with injuries. The report was quietly buried. Importing weapons means the nation is at the mercy of foreign vendors for spares and ammunition. Austria and Germany have refused to let their firms supply weapons to Indian states like Chhattisgarh and Maharashtra citing human rights violations.

The larger problem, say officials, is the utter lack of communication between the designer, manufacturer and user. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the OFB and the army function in silos, not talking to each other. Faulty ammunition made by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is another major cause of weapons malfunctioning in combat, but again, little thought is paid to improving quality. The DRDO's new MSMC compact carbine has the ability to address requirements of the army, police and paramilitary forces but is wrestling with weight and performance issues.

Army officials say at 4 kg, the weapon is too heavy; the DRDO says it will improve subsequent variants. The weapon undergoes final trials this month but is several years away from mass production. Meanwhile the Home Ministry is importing thousands of AK-47 variants from Bulgarian arms manufacturer Arsenal Inc. A home ministry official says the Bulgarian-made AK costs just Rs 22,000, Rs 5000 less than the indigenous INSAS rifle. The irony is hard to miss. A nation self-sufficient in making ballistic missiles imports assault rifles from eastern Europe.


DRDO Delays


This month, the Army is to conduct final trials of the DRDO's Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC).
In development for close on to a decade, it struggled with weight and performance issues. The weight has now dropped to an acceptable 3.1kg and a reliability of 99.4 per cent (3 stoppages for every 1,000 rounds fired) but the Army wants it to reach 99.7 per cent. The Army will buy 2.18 lakh of the carbines for Rs 2,183 crore if the MSMC passes the test.

The police and paramilitary are set to follow. The MSMC could potentially end the small arms confusion and put a stop to imports. The onus now lies with the DRDO to prove it can deliver.


antony_050711101515.jpg


Indian forces face small arms shortage : NATION: India Today
 
.
In the article there was this picture..

gunslarge_050711104347.jpg


I know India imported the 1st, 3rd, 4th gun. But what is the 2nd one? German model?

rwt7p0.jpg


^^

So this is 8 pounds....?
 
.
It is really a matter of sheer concern that we are buying arms for billions & billions of dollar for Air force...navy and investing additional more billions purchasing air freighters (C-17)...but nothing is being done for foot soldiers.

A light weight modern assault rifle or gun is urgently required for our ill equipped armed forces except few elite or special forces. I had lot of personal discussion with army personals, they all are disappointed with INSAS, irony is that insas came after 14 years of R&D.

A well equipped soldier reflects the image of a country and its concern with nations security. I still see police man carrying 100 year old vintage era 303 rifle with them, rather using it as "lathi'.What kind of image that policeman would reflect about India. What would we think about France, if we saw a French police personal with 303 rifle.

Why dont we spent few millions only to bolster the hands of our foot soldier with new, light weight modern assault rifles. Lets pay full attention to this work...
 
.
Army officials say at 4 kg, the weapon is too heavy; the DRDO says it will improve subsequent variants. The weapon undergoes final trials this month but is several years away from mass production

another reason for which DRDO should be disbanded ..
 
.
In March, the Border Security Force (BSF) signed a contract with Italian gun maker Beretta for buying 68,000 submachine guns worth over Rs 400 crore.
Why did they even buy them when MP5A5's could be easily procured and the BSF does have experience with them moreover most paramilitary forces here also have MP5's in quantity.

The Mumbai police's Force One commandos, raised after the 26/11, have four different types of weapons-Colt M-4 carbines from the US, Brugger and Thomet submachine guns from Switzerland, MP-5 submachine guns from Germany and AK-47 variants from eastern Europe.[/B]
Every single counter terrorist team has a plethora of small arms.If the Force One has it, it's blasphemy according to Chidambram.


I wonder how hard it can be for GOI to just license produce MP5's here.If we can't create a decent assault rifle it's not much of a big deal license producing them provided it is a family of small arms.
 
.
Why procure expensive firearms from the West and Middle East? Bangladesh already produces the BD-08 weighing just over 3 kg.

Type-81rifle.JPG



:P :P :P
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
another reason for which DRDO should be disbanded ..

Why would you want to disband a national asset???
Reform it.. rethink the management.. dont take it out on the men and women who form part of it.
The first thing to look at an organization that is not delivering is the management.. are they managing their resources effectively or not?
 
.
Why procure expensive firearms from the West and Middle East? Bangladesh already produces the BD-08 weighing just over 3 kg.

Type-81rifle.JPG



:P :P :P

Thanks but no thanks!! We don't need a Chinese knockoff of AK-47, when we can get the original from Mother Russia itself.

If Bangladeshi weapons are so good then why your police are carrying M-4 carbines??

bangladesh-swat.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Why would you want to disband a national asset???
Reform it.. rethink the management.. dont take it out on the men and women who form part of it.
The first thing to look at an organization that is not delivering is the management.. are they managing their resources effectively or not?

DRDO alone should not be blamed. The armed forces also should share the failure. Its an acknowledged fact that Indian armed forces repeatedly change the specifications causing much delay in the product development by DRDO. Also their 'tolerance levels' for indigenous weapons are much higher.

Uzi is one of the finest sub-machine guns ever produced, but if it was produced by DRDO it would have been rejected by the armed forces on account of the fact that Uzi has a tendency to jam under desert conditions.
 
.
Thanks but no thanks!! We don't need a Chinese knockoff of AK-47, when we can get the original from Mother Russia itself.

If Bangladeshi weapons are so good then why your police are carrying M-4 carbines??

I don't know about the officers in the pic you have posted.

According to online sources, M-4 carbines are used by Bangladesh paratroopers and SWADS (Special Warfare Diving and Salvage). SWADS is the country's Special Forces.

R.A.B.jpg


RAB uses the BD-08. It is a reliable assault rifle. It is not simply a cheap knock-off of the A*s Kicker-47. There are big differences in the design.

The result is the accuracy of an M-16 and the reliability of an AK-47.

There is also an LMG variant as well.

21567_219019144486_219008369486_2813065_3044881_n.jpg

:guns:
 
.
I don't know about the officers in the pic you have posted.

According to online sources, M-4 carbines are used by Bangladesh paratroopers and SWADS (Special Warfare Diving and Salvage). SWADS is the country's Special Forces.

RAB uses the BD-08. It is a reliable assault rifle. It is not simply a cheap knock-off of the A*s Kicker-47. There are big differences in the design.

The result is the accuracy of an M-16 and the reliability of an AK-47.

There is also an LMG variant as well.

Exactly, Indian requisition is for sub machine guns and carbines not assault rifles. We already have a proven assault rifle in the form of INSAS. So if BD have a reliable submachine gun/carbines pls let us know.
 
.
Why would you want to disband a national asset???
Reform it.. rethink the management.. dont take it out on the men and women who form part of it.
The first thing to look at an organization that is not delivering is the management.. are they managing their resources effectively or not?

Very True!!!
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom