For all it's reputation, what has ISI done for Pakistan?

[Maarkhoor]

Too many to list.

The ISI set up fake factories in Turkey so they could import American supercomputers through Canada. At least 10 ships were loaded and delivered before the 11th ship was busted. Some argue the ISI deliberately exposed itself to send a message. Also, the procurement operations in Europe by ISI agents which was extensively covered at the time. If you are interested read the Islamic Bomb by two Washington Post investigative journalists.

Once US delegation met Gen Zia and told him that stop trying to acquire Ring Magnets since they knew for what purpose Pakistan trying to get....Zia smiled and replied my dear friend how many pieces you want I will send you...that reply made American speechless Zia cunningly told them that we already have many.

 

[salarsikander]

What work? Can you please specify?

You seemed to have missed a reply to my post on your exaggeration

 

[LeGenD]

ISI is definitely overrated. And FIA is under-appreciated.

ISI has been instrumental in ensuring Pakistan gained nuclear weapons at a time the entire world was working to deny it access.

Bro,

You are giving ISI too much credit in this matter.

First, the entire world was not trying to prevent Pakistan from becoming a nuclear power. Big misconception.

1. Canada gave us KANUPP which became operational in 1972 - the first nuclear power plant in Pakistan.

2. Scores of Pakistani nuclear scientists learned about centrifuge designs (and other stuff) in European institutes (throughout the 1960s and 1970s), and arranged for flow of important components from European countries such as Sweden and France into Pakistan. Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan was a member of the European Nuclear Consortium at the time, and he played a key role.

"Due to Khan's efforts, the slow recognition of the program by western intelligence, and the weak export controls at the time, Pakistan made rapid progress in developing U-235 production capability. When export controls on nuclear usable materials were imposed on Pakistan in 1974, the focus was on technology applicable to plutonium production, not uranium enrichment, and the focus was on plants and complete systems, not components. By using Khan's detailed information of components and suppliers Pakistan was able to circumvent these controls."

3. China extended its helping hand in the 1970s and gave us CHASHNUPP-I, CHASHNUPP-II, CHASHNUPP-III and CHASHNUPP-IV over the course of years, among other stuff.

References:-

http://www.nti.org/learn/facilities/111/
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Pakistan/AQKhan.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/19/world/roots-of-pakistan-atomic-scandal-traced-to-europe.html
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137298454_11 (Research paper)

Nobody, not even the US, attempted to sabotage Pakistani nuclear efforts. In-fact, American President Richard Nixon supported Pakistani nuclear program.

It also ensured the defeat of the USSR.

With assistance of CIA.

We should also keep in mind who are responsible for assassinating Zia-ul-Haq (and his allies) in 1988. A question mark on the credibility of ISI, mind you.

ISI is also remarkable in how none of its agents defect or is caught for the wrong reasons.

Another misconception.

The ISI also did a great job breaking the backs of the TTP and for making Pakistan safe in the last decade. In South Asia, it is the undisputed top intelligence agency.

With assistance of CIA once again.

Do you know which agency assassinated some of the greatest minds of TTP over the course of years, starting with Baitullah Mehsud? Hint: CIA.

Credit where due.

But it also has some deficiencies. For example, it’s strength is derived from human intelligence. It’s not as proficient in technical aspects of intelligence gathering. This is a serious handicap in modern intelligence. Additionally, it has failed to foresee potential problems with the thousands of mercenaries that swarmed Pakistan during the PPP era. Contrary to popular opinion, ISI does a very bad job protecting the national interest. For example, media in Pakistan is very hostile to the national interest, what passes for critical inquiry in Pakistan is actually sedition. The so called deep state in Pakistan also is hands off politically which explains the revolving door nature of its politics where discredited politicians are recycled. Obviously, this could be due to the corrupt tendencies of the top military leadership which of course like any institution is a reflection of their overall society they come from.

Pakistanis should be proud of owning such a potent intelligence organization but it has some failures like all other intelligence agencies. It does a very good job to the job assigned to it. But this also shows its limitations. It’s not independent and is susceptible to exploitation by the military leadership which undermines its ability. Consequently, it is not able to carry out offensive operations on the lines of MOSSAD and others because the Pakistani state system in recent years has been very conservative and risk averse. This gives a room to its adversaries.

We have over-glorified ISI over the course of years; its contributions in the matters of national security are really appreciated but we tend to overlook contributions of other agencies in the process. FIA is as active as ISI in the matters of national security, as far as I am aware.

Scores of TTP-led attacks were directed towards the offices and infrastructure of FIA throughout the country - as a hint.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

With assistance of CIA. Credit where due.

really? if CIA has defeated USSR which was super power why can't they defeat rag-tag militias in Afghanistan after spending trillions of Dollars and 17 years

 

[LeGenD]

really? if CIA has defeated USSR which was super power

CIA was absolutely active in Afghanistan (and Pakistan) during the course of that war. In-fact, both CIA and ISI shook hands for the purpose of transforming the so-called Mujahideen into a potent fighting force to counter Soviet advances in the region. Afghans were not in the position to tackle Soviet Red Army on their own. Conversely, Americans craved for a payback after Vietnam.

why can't they defeat rag-tag militias in Afghanistan after spending trillions of Dollars and 17 years

Afghanistan is a narco-tribal society and in a perpetual state of civil war since the 1960s; its problems are extremely complex accordingly. Rebuilding Afghanistan might not be an attainable goal or so it seems.

Afghanistan does not represent a conventional theater of engagement with visible defenses and advanced infrastructure. A large number of Afghans do not have a productive way of life and are potential recruits for Taliban and ISIS unfortunately. Even though CIA has assassinated thousands of militants in Afghanistan since 2001, hard-power approach in itself will not be enough to address the problem at hand. Political reforms and employment opportunities are necessary to make difference. US also needs to transition from conventional model of engagement to HUMINT model of engagement in Afghanistan, and commit to this cause for long-term. Trump administration seems to get this but a breakthrough will take time, and appropriate public support might not be forthcoming.

Americans invaded Afghanistan to eliminate Al-Qaeda Network and toppled Taliban-led regime in the process (i.e. Operation Enduring Freedom). They also propped up a new regime in Afghanistan which was supposed to manage the affairs of the country. These objectives were clearly defined, and accomplished. Now, it is up to Afghans to embrace the new setup and move past their differences. Scores have embraced it so far (Gulbuddin Hekmatyar being the most recent case) but the entire country is not onboard.

The resurgent Taliban is firmly entrenched in the local environment but an elusive opponent - not a professional standing army with visible base of operations and advanced support structures to rely upon. Front-lines are also murky, if any. They specialize in hit-and-run attack strategies and do not pick fights with Americans unnecessarily. When a contingent of US Army is dispatched into a Taliban-dominated region in order to clear it, Taliban does not hold ground and rather melts away; this is why conventional model of engagement will not work. US is engaged in a war of attrition with the Taliban since 2003 but the latter force is never short on recruits.

Interestingly, Taliban-based sources have conveyed to Americans that they will not repeat mistakes of Mullah Omar as in not allow any foreign entity to utilize Afghanistan for its nefarious ends but they demand complete American withdrawal from Afghanistan in return. Taliban-based sources invited an American senator Ron Paul for talks in Qatar, not long ago. FYI: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...sh-letter-calling-us-start-afghan-peace-talks

Last, US is not looking forward to exterminate Afghanistan itself, which it can easily do. There should not be any doubt about American might and power projection capabilities but exterminating an entire country would be viewed as barbaric per modern rules of engagement.

---

Total cost of 'War in Afghanistan' is 1.07 trillion USD in a span of 17 years, and much of this cost is logistics-related. The logistics chain stretch back to the US mainland which is 11000+ KM away.

 

[Count Dracula]

Doing nothing while making qaum perceive you as invincible is an deed in itself. Not to mention creating business/revenue models, pocketing most of it while making qaum sing paens about you. Thats almost impossible to achieve. So yeah isi is no1 spy agency.

 

[Qasim Amin]

Dear moderators/admins,

Please don't delete/close this thread. Address this criticism with valid arguments.

For all it's reputation, what has ISI done for Pakistan?

Prevented secession of East Pakistan? No.

Took control of Srinagar side of Kashmir? No.

Prevented the harmful project of CPEC? No.

Won the Soviet-Afghan war? But that was for US.

For all it's reputation, what has ISI done for Pakistan?

P.S.: I didn't state above the reason for ISI's failure. Stating it would be parroting the same old lines. The reason is, "Size does matter." Geographical size, population size etc. India is much bigger. So the ISI's failures are honourable after all.

What has Isi done for Pakitsan? Good question. Isi has become one of the worlds best Spy agencys. It has a higher rank than RAW. It has leaked intel from USSR during the Soviet-Afghan war. It has made its enemies wet its pants. Must I say more??

 

[M A MUGHAL]

what i say you duffer isi is hart of pakistan

 

[Shah_G]

Dear moderators/admins,

Please don't delete/close this thread. Address this criticism with valid arguments.

For all it's reputation, what has ISI done for Pakistan?

Prevented secession of East Pakistan? No.

Took control of Srinagar side of Kashmir? No.

Prevented the harmful project of CPEC? No.

Won the Soviet-Afghan war? But that was for US.

For all it's reputation, what has ISI done for Pakistan?

P.S.: I didn't state above the reason for ISI's failure. Stating it would be parroting the same old lines. The reason is, "Size does matter." Geographical size, population size etc. India is much bigger. So the ISI's failures are honourable after all.

1. It protected Pakistan nuclear program successfully.
2. Took revenge from Soviets for 1971, and their objective to warm waters was successfully thrawted by ISI without going full scale. ISI didn’t fight for Americans in Afghanistan.
3. Supported Taliban and brought peace to Afghanistan between 1996 till USA invasion of Afghanistan.
4. ISI intelligence gathering led to Kargil, Pak Army had India by surprise holding its neck during Kargil operation. If it wasn’t for traitor Nawaz shirf, outcome of Kargil operation would’ve been very different.
5.Bankrupted America, took their money, looted their weapons and used their own weapons against them in never ending Afghanistan war.
6. Again protected our nukes while USA had its eyes on it all these years.
7. Killed CIA and black water network within Pakistan.
8. Killed Bloch national moment, wasting huge amount of Indian money and resources.
9. TTP gone from Pakistan.
10. Intelligence gathering across the border in Afghanistan denies ISIS into Pakistan.
11. Believe me or not, but Indian military and government is very much penetrated by ISI officers.
12. If India ever decides full scale war against Pakistan, there are plans by ISI to take out your government, command and control. Without these two any full scale war will be lost on battle field. So don’t be surprise.

 

[Psychic]

CIA was absolutely active in Afghanistan (and Pakistan) during the course of that war.

CIA's role in Afghanistan and Pakistan was limited to supplying weapons procured from across the globe to the ISI. Plus some maps and satellite data. CIA's role in the war in Afghanistan is over rated. CIA wanted an active role in weapon distribution to the parties which was declined by Zia.
If financial contribution is what you mean then the Saudis also contributed a large sum.

We should also keep in mind who are responsible for assassinating Zia-ul-Haq (and his allies) in 1988. A question mark on the credibility of ISI, mind you.

That is a weak argument. Do you think of JFK assassination or 9/11 as a question mark on the credibility of the CIA?

Nobody, not even the US, attempted to sabotage Pakistani nuclear efforts.

The US did not attempt to do so since we were at the forefront of the fight against communism however some other countries did attempt to sabotage the nuclear program. Major Amir's interviews are on the internet for everyone to see.

With assistance of CIA once again.

Do you know which agency assassinated some of the greatest minds of TTP over the course of years, starting with Baitullah Mehsud? Hint: CIA.

Credit where due.

The assistance of CIA drones, not their intel. They had precision target capability with armed drones flying 24/7 over the area, the technology not available to us. Intel on such targets was provided by the ISI.
Drones created a lot more problems then they actually solved, sabotaged peace deals a couple of times, civilian casualties in drone attacks provided TTP people willing to blow themselves up in revenge attacks and propaganda for their cause.