Focusing on LNG, govt bans new solar and wind projects

[Arsalan]

Yes I agree that solar panels should be allowed for individual and small scale business to help relief the national grid! However, I do understand it is too expensive for individuals however, those who can afford it should be encouraged to put them! Australia gives some incentives to people willing to install solar panels...

Yes these are expensive. However reducing taxes, trying to setup some local manufacturing will help bring down the price for the panels at least. The rest of the equipment, like the UPS, charge controller etc contribute to about 50% of the cost when setting up a solar setup for home. However there are private firms already making these locally. Additional competition will further bring down the price. ON a government level, IF (a big IF because of HUGE costs involved) we can start installing smart meters and gradually replace the older ones as well with meters through which the producer can also sell electricity that would be ideal. That will turn out to be a big incentive for people to convert to solar when they can sell there surplus electricity, like in the afternoon when the production is at highest and kids and men are at work so the consumption is relatively lower compared to at night when everyone is at home.

 

[C130]

Solar plants can be free energy source 0.01% land in Baluchistan can fuel whole Pakistan's need

Solar plants can be free energy source 0.01% land in Baluchistan can fuel whole Pakistan's need

that's funny though. since solar is extremely expensive and inefficient. then you gotta take into account bad weather and that solar produces 0 electricity at night.

not even best friend China could make this work.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

u haven't been to Baluchistan , its SUNNY , like Pheonix Arizona

 

[Dubious]

Yes these are expensive. However reducing taxes, trying to setup some local manufacturing will help bring down the price for the panels at least. The rest of the equipment, like the UPS, charge controller etc contribute to about 50% of the cost when setting up a solar setup for home. However there are private firms already making these locally. Additional competition will further bring down the price. ON a government level, IF (a big IF because of HUGE costs involved) we can start installing smart meters and gradually replace the older ones as well with meters through which the producer can also sell electricity that would be ideal. That will turn out to be a big incentive for people to convert to solar when they can sell there surplus electricity, like in the afternoon when the production is at highest and kids and men are at work so the consumption is relatively lower compared to at night when everyone is at home.

awesome idea! Pata nai tindoun kay damagh mein aysay idea kiyun nai atay

 

[egodoc222]

Sheikhon ko kon razi rakhy ga bahi??? aur agr razi ni rakhain gy tu bhag ka kahan jain gay?


On a serious note, i am glad that they have banned Solar plants. That was stupid thing to setup up HUGE plants to produce energy for national grid. The Solar energy is at best a private solution. The taxes on solar panels should be removed, government should try to get private sector involved and set up some collaboration with foreign firm for local manufacturing. Then these panels are to be sold in market from where individuals who can afford them can buy and install them for there OWN NEEDS thus reducing the burden on national gird indirectly.

If SOLAR POWER PARKS are set up that is a big waste of money. BILLIONS are being spent on plants that will spread across acres and need an army of workers to maintain the panels. About 4000 panels will make one mega watt of energy, now think about the area these 4000 panels will cover and think about dozens of workers who will have to maintain these panels. That will be a continuous bleeding process, would take huge amount of money and work force to keep such large scale plants running on a government level.

On other hand, a setup of 12 panels is enough to power a normal house (all things included, like Invertor AC, Fridge, Freezer TV Microwave and normal fan and lights), can easily be maintained by the house owner and will take of burden from national grid indirectly. Even better if you can get some one to make these panels in Pakistan thus providing jobs and educating/training a work force.

WIND POWER, is a totally different case however. That is absolutely cheap, a standard wind turbine can give you 1.8 MW of electricity, that is about twice what you will get from 4000 panels. Also the wind power, once the turbine is installed in carefully selected zone can generate power day and night.

My Opinion:
While the ban on solar power plants makes complete sense and i really do appreciate the government to finally coming to its senses on this, banning wind power is TOTALLY STUPID and uncalled for. Don't know what they were smoking when they made this decision.There might be a few negative ratings or comments by pmln lovers here but remember that while i am really surprised by one stupid move, i really do appreciate the other one!

Why ban anything?
Why not diverse the sources of electricity?!

 

[Dubious]

Will you please post a government notification saying that "individuals can't put solar panels themselves"? I'd like to see it. This makes no sense as individuals can buy generators right now. So why not install the solar panels? Please post some government document.

Do you not understand English?
How is your answer relevant to what you quoted?
Read what you quoted from what I wrote:

those who can afford it should be encouraged to put them! Australia gives some incentives to people willing to install solar panels...

Trolling habits outshining your comprehension skills?

As for why install solar because you like your bosses want to be dependent on LNG which fluctuates in price while solar energy doesnt.. and shouldnt unless some tinda gets all hanky panky about wanting to tax solar panels!

no plant is constructed without feasibility study. They questions you raised are already covered and studied in preliminary stage of feasibility study.

Under Noon govt plants are constructed without feasibility study hence you get such replies like that of viper!

Actually you should go for coal based power plant. They are very cheap producer of electricity. I was in a power plant some years ago and we used to sell electricity to government @RS 2.30 per unit and still managed to get a big profit.

I know its cheaper but mining the coal and then the pollution doesnt really add up to the cheapness...You see we are on loans and we have to show some stable results which also include pollution!

Why should it be either / or ?

We have begun running airports on Solar Energy so can Pak.

Kochi : 1st airport in the world to run completely on solar power

I pointed that out already but tinda doesnt understand .... I didnt know lack of hair was directly related to lack of brain's ability to be visionary

Why ban anything?
Why not diverse the sources of electricity?!

Ask the genius we call tinda Diversify would mean lack of control meaning he wont get kickbacks

 

[Arsalan]

Why ban anything?
Why not diverse the sources of electricity?!

Interesting point, very true indeed

Ban is a bit too strong of an action, even for solar power. Rather then ban government must try to offer such alternatives that will make all pieces fall into there place themselves. Make policies that will make things work, that is how a government should IDEALLY perform!

Relax @Akheilos , let keep ourself calm. No need to get aggressive. We can keep this thread on track, TOGETHER!

Will you please post a government notification saying that "individuals can't put solar panels themselves"? I'd like to see it. This makes no sense as individuals can buy generators right now. So why not install the solar panels? Please post some government document..

Hi, i dont think he meant that gvernment have banned individuals from installing the panels. If he did he is wrong. The ban is on Solar Power Plants and not on individual Solar power solutions. What he is saying, and that i agree with, is that government should further facilitate the installation of solar panels by individuals. Get people shift to solar for there homes, offices, shops, petrol pumps, small businesses etc. That can be done be bringing the costs of equipment downs and giving the options to sale surplus electricity via smart two way meters. The part concerning bringing the prices downs in relatively easy, wave off taxes and duties, try to get local production etc. The incentive of selling surplus energy is relatively difficult for now as it will need millions of meters to be changed and thus will involve heavy costs. Then again, there is a solution to that as well, when we apply for a new meter we need to submit a fee, government can arrange for these new two way smart meters and anyone who have solar panels and want to see the energy can apply for this new meter and can pay for it (total or part of cost) to get that installed. Believe me, the selling part is a big incentive. In day time there is lot of surplus energy that people can sell, that in turn can be used for offices and industry that mostly run in day time. I know that will not meet the requirement but something is better then nothing right? So that will help ease the load on national grid (as consumption of the users using solar panels is reduced, in fact they are now contributing some little energy to the grid) and thus will make the job of government (to meet energy needs of the country) easier.

 

[Dubious]

Relax @Akheilos , let keep ourself calm. No need to get aggressive. We can keep this thread on track, TOGETHER!

Ohh dont worry I am very much relaxed those who have met me know I have a strong sarcasm side which gets activated in its relaxed form

 

[Faiez]

OH, we got a live one!
Thanks for letting us know your public interaction and debate/discussion skills. Was it you school or home?

HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS!!


If you were sensible enough to look at the previous posts before jumping in with your ranting you would have noticed we were comparing 1000 MW plants!

AND

That the debate was not about solar being mad but the costs involved to run a solar plant spread over hundreds and thousands (try and learn difference between hundreds of thousands and hundreds and thousands) of acres compared to wind energy plant.

Yeah I changed "And" to "Of", to make my argument sound better .

Again, that 1000MW is only the rated capacity of the PV panels altogether. Not the rate at which it will produce power. It is just the rated power capacity which is most likely to be at 1000W/m2 and 25 degree celsius. Meaning that if you provide the plant with 1000W/m2 sunlight and 25 degree celsius panel temp. Only then (for the time when theses conditions prevail) will it be producing 1000MW. On average a 1000MW rated capacity plant may produce roughly 150-200MW max.

I know quite a lot about it kid, only i don't try to prove it by calling names.

At least learn to see what is being discussed before jumping gun. It is a COMPARISON between Wind and Solar and costs involved to keep them running. As for the wind map, do you think we do not have enough areas to setup ANYTHING? three years ago there was a survey conducted by a team from Norway which identified sites with potential of 14000 MW and year around production capability.

Costs involved in maintaining a solar power plant are comparable to that of running a wind plant.

Just because it covers 1000s of acres doesn't mean it needs 1000s of people to operate. Much of the systems are computerized and panels don't exactly need regular cleaning. The major cost in solar power is most likely the depreciation cost.

And yes, I've looked thoroughly at wind data for Pakistan. Pakistan has low wind speeds. It's not enough to call pakistan a wind gifted country or something. The main areas are the coastal areas and some parts of baluchistan, some parts of punjab and that's about it...And these areas mostly have average wind speeds in the range of 6-9m/s, not more than that.

A properly windy area is one that gets 10-12m/s regularly around the year. That's when wind power is properly feasible. The only reason there is investment coming in wind power in pakistan is because government has promised very high electricity rates to investors. This electricity will then be subsidized heavily to bring it to our homes and industries at affordable rates, but we'll still be paying through taxes/debt for it.

 

[Arsalan]

Yeah I changed "And" to "Of", to make my argument sound better .

Again, that 1000MW is only the rated capacity of the PV panels altogether. Not the rate at which it will produce power. It is just the rated power capacity which is most likely to be at 1000W/m2 and 25 degree celsius. Meaning that if you provide the plant with 1000W/m2 sunlight and 25 degree celsius panel temp. Only then (for the time when theses conditions prevail) will it be producing 1000MW. On average a 1000MW rated capacity plant may produce roughly 150-200MW max

Good.
Again, you are missing the point that was being discussed, here, try this again, WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST WILL BE REQUIRED? I am not getting back into acres or the number of panels debate, you tell us, what do you think, in ideal condition, how may panels will be required to set up a 1000 MW plant. I know the production rate will differ with time so i stress on "Ideal peak time production" What do you suggest? let us go by your info.


Looking forward to a reply to that, just tell us your idea of number of panels req so we can get to next part.

 

[Archie]

People often forget that the time of cheap oil wont last for ever,

Sooner rather than later, oil prices will again march towards 100 USD a barrel, Because Saudis are loosing forex at break neck speed and they will start cutting production to force a price rise.

what will the noonies do then, when the same LNG based plants lie empty coz gas will become unaffordable.

Indian Government plans to cut the share of Coal and Gas in Electricity production by nearly 20% over next 15 years. This is part of our commitment to reduce green house gas emmissions

 

[Shah01]

Solar energy is good but I would make it a private venture rather than a Government one. So every household can install it if they have the money and indirectly help the power sector.
Windmills are very good. If Pakistan has enough suitable areas then should deploy them.

People often forget that the time of cheap oil wont last for ever,

Sooner rather than later, oil prices will again march towards 100 USD a barrel, Because Saudis are loosing forex at break neck speed and they will start cutting production to force a price rise.

what will the noonies do then, when the same LNG based plants lie empty coz gas will become unaffordable.

Indian Government plans to cut the share of Coal and Gas in Electricity production by nearly 20% over next 15 years. This is part of our commitment to reduce green house gas emmissions

Well gas plants are a quick fix as they can be constructed within 2 years. Coal will take about 4 years and hydro much longer. So to get votes in the next election they need to fix the problem before the election.
I just did a quick analysis on the cost of generating all the electricity Pakistan uses from natural gas. That is about 85 TWh of electricity.
This is based on current gas prices (not LNG).
Population increasing to 220 million within next 10 years.
Gas prices increasing 4% every year and
Power usage also increasing by 2% from 450 kWh per capita (WB figure).

 

[Faiez]

Good.
Again, you are missing the point that was being discussed, here, try this again, WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST WILL BE REQUIRED? I am not getting back into acres or the number of panels debate, you tell us, what do you think, in ideal condition, how may panels will be required to set up a 1000 MW plant. I know the production rate will differ with time so i stress on "Ideal peak time production" What do you suggest? let us go by your info.


Looking forward to a reply to that, just tell us your idea of number of panels req so we can get to next part.

multiply the required power by around 6-8, that is the panel capacity needed for an average power supply.

If you need 1,000MW continuous supply worth of energy per year, then you need to install panels of around 6,000MW to 8,000MW or so.

 

[proud_indian]

Solar Power Will Become Cheaper Than Coal By 2017

HuffPost India | By Anirvan Ghosh
​

Email
India might be one of the fastest growing economies, but around one-third of the rural population does not have access to regular supply of electricity. And despite having some of the lowest per capital consumption of power in the world, India's power shortage had reached 30,000 MW per day in August, leading to frequent power cuts during peak consumption in the summer.

The federal government's Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission (JNNSM) was started by the previous UPA government to help bridge the gap between the rising demand and lagging supply. The mission also seeks to divert production of energy from polluting sources like coal to solar, of which tropical India has an abundant supply.

Several startups and small independent producers have taken this opportunity to develop solar energy. Among them is Azure Power, which was started in 2007 by former Silicon Valley executive Inderpreet Wadhwa, and has a stated aim of being the lowest cost producer of solar power in the world. It builds, owns and operates solar power plants in Punjab, Gujarat and Rajasthan. Wadhwa, whose debut project was the first plant to sell solar power commercially in India, says his firm now offers rooftop solar power at Rs 6, making it comparable to the cost of a household's conventional power bill. Helion Venture Partners, Foundation Capital were early investors in the firm, and last year Azure raised $14.3 million from IFC, the private sector investment arm of the World Bank.

Yesterday, it commissioned a 100 MW solar plant in Rajasthan under JNNSM. Wadhwa talked with HuffPost about the state of solar power in India, ways to scale up its role in India's energy mix that still relies heavily on coal, and how enterprise-level generation of solar will become cheaper than conventional power by 2017.

The main problem with solar all these years has been its pricing. It is more expensive than conventional power. Are you achieving some sort of parity now with better technology?

We built India’s first commercial project in this sector in 2009. At the time we were selling power at Rs 17.91. per unit. That’s extremely expensive as you pointed out. But over time, improvements in technology and pricing of tech and more efficiency in construction meant we could bring it down to Rs 6 now. Some of our recent projects are in that range. So that’s a 70 percent reduction over a four-year period, which is huge. If we continue to move in that direction, it is only a matter of time that solar will be cheaper than coal. Today in most cities we are able to sign bilateral contracts for rooftop solar without any subsidy. Because the delivered cost of power is even higher and solar can compete at the point of consumption. And we will soon get there at the point of generation as well.

Today, whatever you pay at home, whatever is the daily upper limit, we can beat that. In the cities we are at a price advantage. In large-scale projects however, there is a still a gap between conventional and solar power. But with time solar will become cheaper.

One limitation with solar is that you won’t get power if there is no sun. So in areas where sunny weather is not a regular occurrence, this might not be a viable source of power. What is your view on that?

For that storage has to get better. I think there is some innovation happening on that if you followed Tesla. They have made very large investments in storage, so I don’t see any reason why that technology cannot be used for storage of renewable energy as well. But again, solar is a function of sun, so when it is sunny out it works really well. When the sun it not out, well that is a storage problem not a solar problem. Storage tech will get better with time but they are not there today where you can do mass storage of solar. But in my mind India by and large has three-quarters of the country available to produce many gigawatts of solar. Right now India also has a good energy mix, and you can have smarter energy grids that can decide which energy to use when. I think that is an easier problem to solve than the storage problem.

As you scale, you will need solar panels on larger tracts of land. And acquiring land for industry has been a problem. The Land Bill meant to address the issue is still stuck in parliament. How are you managing the issue?

I think with scale that is likely to be a challenge. What has worked for us so far is community engagement where you try not to displace any other activity. There’s plenty of wasteland that’s available in most of the states we operate in where you are now creating a revenue stream for wasteland. If you were looking for a very specific piece of land, and there are linkages associated with it, then you have a problem. But we are flexible, and can relocate from location 1 to 2 to 3 and so on but generally when we go for wasteland, people have no problems in concluding that transaction. But land acquisition in India is still complicated and if it can be simplified from a process standpoint, it’s most welcome. But we are not too hindered because we are going after wasteland.

Skilled manpower has been an issue for certain industries in India. Do you face a challenge there, particularly because you are growing fast?

We have a core engineering and execution team that manages and controls the core activities of the business. When we talk about scale, it is more in terms of execution, supervision and then operations. Its not a high-tech function, and for the foreseeable future I don’t see a skills problem because it’s easy to train. The programs we developed internally are very efficient. They have helped us hire people from the industry. The slowdown in infrastructure projects the last couple of years actually allowed us to tap into a good talent pool for solar.

Where do you hire from?

At the bottom skill level, we hire technicians from vocational schools like it is. Above that level we hire from engineering schools and there are a lot of them in India. And supervisors are hired from the construction industry. This is the talent pool we tapped the last couple of years.

What is the potential for solar energy?

The mix now is that almost 60 percent is coal, 10-15 percent is hydro, a small percentage is gas, and then the rest: biomass, nuclear, solar, run of the mill. Largely still coal. So the potential for solar is huge, you can build more than what India needs.

Where do you see solar expanding in the next couple of years, realistically?

Right now it’s small capacity because the industry has just started to take off. But India can get to 10-15 percent of the mix from solar in the next 3-5 years. And if we can continue with the same ambition you can even get to 30 percent. I think the highest mix of solar anywhere in the world is in Germany, where most months in the summer it goes as high as 50 percent. From an integration standpoint it has been tested. So 10 percent is perhaps a good first goal to achieve and then getting to 30 percent would be great.

But they also pay much higher energy bills than Indians do.

But I think when solar becomes Rs 4 and coal becomes Rs 7 then the discussion in India will also change. That’s the inflexion point for India. I believe it is possible by 2017-18 that you get power cheaper from solar than new coal-based plants, if not the old.

State and federal governments have provided subsidies and incentives to install solar. But beyond that we need viable models that might work with distributors. What has been your experience so far?

The government’s efforts are still early stage, just starting right now. Good they are at least putting the framework in place for inter-connection i.e., how solar power at home will connect to the distribution company. We did a project in Gandhinagar maybe 2 years ago, where we took almost 200 buildings – residential and commercial – and we had an agreement with the distribution company there for integration with the grid. We were selling to them, they were in turn selling to the building owner, and the owner was having a revenue share with us. So models like that, where the distribution company is able to displace other sources of power works out cheaper. The customer benefits too, his cost of electricity is actually going down. So models like that will become extremely useful and we are talking a lot about smart cities now, and solar will be an integral part of that.

How has the landscape changed for solar power entrepreneurs since the time you started in 2009?

Today there is more competition. When I started the business, nobody knew what the business is going to be, nobody knew what solar is going to be like in India, so there were different challenges in that phase. I started looking at it in 2007, and incorporated a company in 2008 and built the first project in 2009. So between 2007-09 there was a lot of effort in researching, getting permissions from regulators, setting the tariff order, structuring the power purchase agreements, structuring the financing. None of that had been done before. Nobody knew how much energy we could produce. So a lot of those challenges existed in those days. Today none of that is a challenge because you have got standard references to look at for everything. You have plants running everywhere. So the challenge now is more in terms of how do you differentiate yourself. New business models perhaps. How can you be more efficient? There is lot more competition. But having said that, this is a very large market and lots of opportunities out there.

Solar Power Will Become Cheaper Than Coal By 2017











World's cheapest solar power in Madhya Pradesh at Rs 5 per unit

Chetan Chauhan, Hindustan Times, New Delhi

Madhya Pradesh is set to be home to the cheapest solar power not only in India but the entire world, finally offering a cost-effective alternative to the environmentally-harmful thermal power.

​

Companies that have bid for projects floated by the Madhya Pradesh Power Management Company are ready to sell solar energy to the state for as less as Rs 5 per unit for a period of over 20 years. According to energy experts, the offer is lower than the global average price of Rs 6.10 per unit and even beats the cost at which the Delhi government buys from thermal power companies.​

The price of solar power has seen a global decline in the last few years with India too witnessing a dramatic fall – fastest in the world – since 2010 when the Jawaharlal Nehru Solar Mission was launched. A unit of solar energy cost Rs 17 then.

The plummeting prices can be attributed to an increase in Chinese export of low-cost photovoltaic cells that has in turn led to an 80% drop in prices of solar panels over the last five years. Also, the efficiency of the panels to convert solar energy into electricity has improved from 13% to 18%, resulting in cheaper power.

India is a major investment destination for major international and domestic energy firms with Prime Minister Narendra Modi announcing a five-fold increase in target for generating solar power to 100,000MW. All state governments revamped their solar energy policies to meet the new target and Madhya Pradesh was the first to announce the setting up of special solar energy parks with single-window clearance.

A senior official in the Madhya Pradesh renewable energy department termed it the beginning of a new trend which could witness the price of solar energy falling further at a time when thermal power continues to get costlier with an increase in prices of coal.

The Union Ministry of New and Renewable Energy (MNRE) too expects the price of solar energy to go down further when states like Rajasthan, Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh invite bids for their projects.

A senior ministry official said Madhya Pradesh has given a boost to their estimate that solar power will cost less than thermal power across India by early 2016.

“What has happened in India in solar sphere in five years took 15 years in Germany,” Christian Redl of Agora Energywende, a German energy think tank, had told this correspondent during a visit to Germany in May this year.

According to Arunbha Ghosh, chief executive officer of the Delhi-based Centre for Energy Environment and Water, solar technology is seeing a major transformation across the world. “Solar is for energy what internet is for communication. In coming years, you will see solar energy run-equipment in homes like computers,” he said.

Some experts, however, fear that falling prices of solar energy may lead to its doom if corrective policy initiatives are not taken.

World's cheapest solar power in Madhya Pradesh at Rs 5 per unit​

 

[Arsalan]

multiply the required power by around 6-8, that is the panel capacity needed for an average power supply.

If you need 1,000MW continuous supply worth of energy per year, then you need to install panels of around 6,000MW to 8,000MW or so.

Thank you, and how many panels will be required for that 6000 MW plant that will be, according to you, able to supply 1000 MW continuously.