First Project-15B Bangalore-class DDG hull : satellite pics

[spectribution]

Well, what is te problem? As I pointed out, I am not surprised INS Viraat carries spare rounds for its pair of 8 cell Barak launchers. As pointed out, Barak is under 100kg and just over 2m. As an aircraft carrier and former commando carrier, INS Viraat has 4x the displacement of Kolkata, is 50% longer and has 3x its beam a much larger and is hence inherently a stabler ship. Not only that, it comes equipped with a spatious flight deck for people and things to be move around freely, ordnance magazines, ordnance elevator, ordnance trolleys, and handling gear such as mobile deck crane or forklift. It can handle reloading Barak 1 independently while at sea.

I can't look inside Kolkata but any missile rounds carried internally that are not reloaded somehow below decks must come on deck somewhere and must be moved to the appropriate position to be lowered vertically into the VLU. How would Kolkata remove spent canister and load new canister while at sea? She's not like a carrier and doesn't come equipped with the same kind of ordnance handling equipment (of which one would incidentally likely see some external evidence e.g. an ordnance hatch, a jackstay). I really do not see INS Deepak swinging over its crane while it is doing underway RAS at sea. Not in the last place because of the length of the crane and hence the narrow distance the ships would have to keep. INS Aditya would suffer tha same issues. And INS JYOTI don't carry such a crane (although it does have a starboardside crane for its boats).

I don't understand the fuss either, take INS Aditya or the INS Deepak, make sure it's at Sea State 3 or less, swing out the canister and take out the new one stored in INS Kolkata's hold. Make the switch and pull away. During proacted campaign you cannot make port as that would make you a sitting duck for enemy submarines which hunt in shallow water or lay mines at your doorstep!

PS : Check this out :

An exercise in futility my friend.

No ordinance elevators, no crane appropriately placed for handling munitions, most importantly absolutely no rationale behind the arrangement and yet people have been lapping up what Mr. Sengupta and co. has been offloading.

Dillinger wrt to you "think tank credentials" what have you to show that your knowledge in these matters is better than PK S. He publishes in magazines, papers, blogs, etc. Agreed conventional knowledge is limited in these matters but unless you have proof please refrain!

I don't understand the fuss either, take INS Aditya or the INS Deepak, make sure it's at Sea State 3 or less, swing out the canister and take out the new one stored in INS Kolkata's hold. Make the switch and pull away. During proacted campaign you cannot make port as that would make you a sitting duck for enemy submarines which hunt in shallow water or lay mines at your doorstep!

PS : Check this out :

Dillinger wrt to you "think tank credentials" what have you to show that your knowledge in these matters is better than PK S. He publishes in magazines, papers, blogs, etc. Agreed conventional knowledge is limited in these matters but unless you have proof please refrain!

Also Nirbhay WAS first introduced as a UAV in MAKS 2005. The Laghu Shakti engine is a copy of a Russian one! As per MCTR Russia CANNOT give an engine of 1000 km capacity to any country. So it gave the lame excuse of the UAV "with cruise missile mimicking capacity" to cover it's a$$.

 

[Dillinger]

I don't understand the fuss either, take INS Aditya or the INS Deepak, make sure it's at Sea State 3 or less, swing out the canister and take out the new one stored in INS Kolkata's hold. Make the switch and pull away. During proacted campaign you cannot make port as that would make you a sitting duck for enemy submarines which hunt in shallow water or lay mines at your doorstep!

PS : Check this out :

Dillinger wrt to you "think tank credentials" what have you to show that your knowledge in these matters is better than PK S. He publishes in magazines, papers, blogs, etc. Agreed conventional knowledge is limited in these matters but unless you have proof please refrain!

Of course there is proof, the absence of said systems and his harebrained "hydraulic reloading mechanism" claims. There no reloading mechanisms for VLUs for below deck reloads, HE HAS CLAIMED THE EXISTENCE OF ONE, shows exactly how much he knows. Please, journos who publish on defence are a dime a dozen, from enchanting stories of "reusable" cruise missiles to radars fitted on to a tank (The Arjun's IR suite was touted as a radar by journos in defexpo 14).

Unless you can spot a munitions elevator for me right next to the LR-SAM VLU (yes right next, this isn't a carrier's deck where you can move about freely with live munitions) the very notion of a below deck magazine for spare rounds is absurd, how will you get the rounds above deck? Just answer that one question or better yet ask PSK to answer it.

Basically what you've just posted is the UNREP protocol for rearming a MK.41 VLU farm, bravo, note that the spare rounds are not stored on the ship itself, the new canisters are also offloaded by the replenishment vehicle, is this supposed to corroborate the story of extra rounds being kept on board the kolkata itself? AGAIN, HOW WILL YOU BRING THOSE ROUNDS ABOVE DECK SO THAT THE REARMING SYSTEM OFFLOADED BY THE REPLENISHMENT SHIP CAN DO ITS JOB?

 

[spectribution]

Of course there is proof, the absence of said systems and his harebrained "hydraulic reloading mechanism" claims. There no reloading mechanisms for VLUs for below deck reloads, HE HAS CLAIMED THE EXISTENCE OF ONE, shows exactly how much he knows. Please, journos who publish on defence are a dime a dozen, from enchanting stories of "reusable" cruise missiles to radars fitted on to a tank (The Arjun's IR suite was touted as a radar by journos in defexpo 14).

Unless you can spot a munitions elevator for me right next to the LR-SAM VLU (yes right next, this isn't a carrier's deck where you can move about freely with live munitions) the very notion of a below deck magazine for spare rounds is absurd, how will you get the rounds above deck? Just answer that one question or better yet ask PSK to answer it.

Couple of minutes ago you said VLS cannot be replenished at sea unless there was crane. Now I give you proof. What if a similar mechanism is being used to load the missiles? Can you stake your wife/mother/daughter 's life on your claim there isn't one?

PS : I have no interest in liberal media like TOI, they have their head up their a$$es!

 

[Dillinger]

Couple of minutes ago you said VLS cannot be replenished at sea unless there was crane. Now I give you proof. What if a similar mechanism is being used to load the missiles? Can you stake your wife/mother/daughter 's life on your claim there isn't one?

You don't seem to be getting it!

A VLS cannot be replenished under the conditions that PSK is stating, ie. rounds stored below deck on the ship itself without a munitions elevator and on board cranes specifically located to effect the reload. THAT IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING.

A REPLENISHMENT SHIP CAN OF COURSE EFFECT A RELOAD, AND BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY SHIP WHICH CAN IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR THE KOLKATA ITSELF TO CARRY THE SPARE ROUNDS, THAT IS THE SECOND THING I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR DAYS NOW!

Do you understand now?

IF the Kolkata carries spare rounds below deck then it needs BOTH the crane and the munitions elevator.

IF either of the two are absent then the reloading cannot be accomplished.

On the other hand a replenishment ship can handle the reload because it is specifically meant to do so, BUT it will have to transfer both the new canisters and the reloading mechanism itself. The replenishment ship itself will carry the spare rounds since its crane cannot swing about all over the Kolkata's deck trying to first pick up munitions brought to the top deck from below deck (for which the munitions elevator are not present).

There is no question of putting anything at stake, munitions elevators are clearly visible wherever they are present.

 

[spectribution]

You don't seem to be getting it!

A VLS cannot be replenished under the conditions that PSK is stating, ie. rounds stored below deck on the ship itself without a munitions elevator and on board cranes specifically located to effect the reload. THAT IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING.

A REPLENISHMENT SHIP CAN OF COURSE EFFECT A RELOAD, AND BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY SHIP WHICH CAN IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR THE KOLKATA ITSELF TO CARRY THE SPARE ROUNDS, THAT IS THE SECOND THING I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR DAYS NOW!

Do you understand now?

IF the Kolkata carries spare rounds below deck then it needs BOTH the crane and the munitions elevator.

IF either of the two are absent then the reloading cannot be accomplished.

On the other hand a replenishment ship can handle the reload because it is specifically meant to do so, BUT it will have to transfer both the new canisters and the reloading mechanism itself.

See hydraulic system i posted!

 

[Dillinger]

See hydraulic system i posted!

LORD! THAT SYSTEM TOO IS NOT CARRIED ON-BOARD THE SHIP, AND IT MOST DEFINITELY DOES NOT EFFECT A BELOW DECK RELOAD LIKE WHAT PSK IS TOUTING!

The reloading device itself has to be lowered onto the VLU by a crane, it is not fitted internally, what you've posted STATES EXACTLY THAT, THAT THE RELOADING DEVICE FIRST HAS TO BE SET IN PLACE BY THE CRANE ITSELF!

 

[Penguin]

@spectribution:

You have publicly stated you do not argue (anymore) that there is an autoreloader below deck

As I understand you support the point of view that the Kolkata carries the reload / spare missile canisters herself. Therefor I do not see the relevance of the ability to use a RAS rig (or vertrep, for that matter) to transport a missile canister from a replenishment vessel to another ship at sea. This capability is not disputed. It is the same for transferring solid stores and personnel and e.g. gun ammo. In any case, any canisters put on board this way would still have to be moved to the VLUs and handled there (and any spent canister would have to be removed)

Does the VLU for the Barak 8 come with a strike down crane (abandoned by US from Mk41 after proven impractical)?

Let's assume it is the case. If so, the loadout is not 32 + 32 = 64 but rather (32 - 2x(number of cell taken up by strike down crane in one of each pair of VLUs)) plus reloads, because you would need a forward and a rear SDC. If the number of missile is still to add up to 64, then even more rounds would have to be carrier as reloads, which makes it all the more pressing that we locate the point at which missiles come on deck. It would have to be quite near the VLU location, if the SDC is to pick up and handle the canister, without any further need for additional deckhandling and associated equipment. Which implies spare canisters to be stored in 2 seperate magazines, one forward and one rear, to minimize deck movement need. If would not be easy to overlook and would have to be visible at both VLU locations. If canisters were RAS-sed or vertrep-ped to any place other than the immediate vicinity of the VLUs, it may be necessary to be able to hoist canisters from main deck up to the top of the VLU deck (forward) or helicopter hangar (rear). I don't see it, do you?

Such an SDC arrangement incidentally lessens the already limited number of ready to fire rounds. If it is assumed the Barak-8 VLU is dimensionally similar to the Mk41, Kolkata would loose 2x3=6 ready fire rounds, bringing down the number directly available to a mere 26 (2 more more than the 24 Shtil on P17, but that comes with a further 32 Barak 1). Since 26 rounds (13 engagements if you put 2 missiles per target) are expended sooner than 32 (16 engagements), use of a SDC would increase the need to reload at sea (from own magazine) and to replenish at sea (canister transfer). I think if I were a captain, I would rather have more ready rounds than the ability to reload using a strike down crane.

Pls stop pointing things out to me which I have first pointed out to you in another thread.

I would like to go back to the P15B and not derail the thread with a discussion that has already taken place in another thread on the P15A.

 

[Dillinger]

You have publicly stated you do not argue (anymore) that there is an autoreloader below deck

As I understand you support the point of view that the Kolkata carries the reload / spare missile canisters herself. Therefor I do not see the relevance of the ability to use a RAS rig (or vertrep, for that matter) to transport a missile canister from a replenishment vessel to another ship at sea. This capability is not disputed. It is the same for transferring solid stores and personnel and e.g. gun ammo. In any case, any canisters put on board this way would still have to be moved to the VLUs and handled there (and any spent canister would have to be removed)

Does the VLU for the Barak 8 come with a strike down crane (abandoned by US from Mk41 after proven impractical)?

Let's assume it is the case. If so, the loadout is not 32 + 32 = 64 but rather (32 - 2x(number of cell taken up by strike down crane in one of each pair of VLUs)) plus reloads, because you would need a forward and a rear SDC. If the number of missile is still to add up to 64, then even more rounds would have to be carrier as reloads, which makes it all the more pressing that we locate the point at which missiles come on deck. It would have to be quite near the VLU location, if the SDC is to pick up and handle the canister, without any further need for additional deckhandling and associated equipment. If would have to be visible at both VLU locations. Which implies spare canisters to be stored in 2 seperate magazines. One forward and one rear. It would not be easy to overlook. If canisters were RAS-sed or vertrep-ped to any place other than the immediate vicinity of the VLUs, it may be necessary to be able to hoist canister from main deck to the top of the VLU deck (forward) or helicopter hangar (rear). I don';t see it, do you?

Such an arrangement incidentally lessens the already limited number of ready to fire rounds. If it is assumed the Barak-8 VLU is dimensionally similar to the Mk41, Kolkata would loose 2x3=6 ready fire rounds, bringing down the number directly available to a mere 26 (not substantially more than the 24 Shtil on P17, but that has a further 32 Barak 1). Since 26 rounds (13 engagements if you put 2 missiles per target) are expended sooner than 32 (16 engagements) use of a SDC would increase the need to reload at sea. I think if I were a captain, I would rather have more ready rounds than the ability to reload using a strike down crane.

Pls stop pointing things out to me which I have first pointed out to you in another thread.

I would like to go back to the P15B and not derail the thread with a discussion that has already taken place in another thread on the P15A.

FORGET EVERYTHING! AND I MEAN EVERYTHING, JUST SHOW ME THE MUNITIONS ELEVATOR TO BRING THE EXTRA LR-SAM ROUNDS FROM BELOW DECK TO THE TOP DECK?

ASSUMING THAT THE ROUNDS TO RELOADED ARE CARRIED ON THE KOLKATA ITSELF AND BELOW DECK THAT TOO:-

IF SAID ELEVATOR/MECHANISM IS ABSENT THEN EVEN IF THE KOLKATA HAD A SDC MECHANISM IT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO EFFECT A RELOAD AND NOR WOULD A FRV BE ABLE TO DO IT EVEN IF IT USED THE SLIDING PADEYE TO TRANSFER A HYDRAULIC RELOADING MECHANISM ONTO THE KOLKATA (YOU'D STILL HAVE TO LOWER IT SOMEHOW, THE MECHANISM ONTO THE VLU)!

SO, WHERE IS THE MUNITIONS ELEVATOR, AND IT SHOULD BE PLENTY DAMN CLOSE TO THE LR-SAM VLU?

 

[Penguin]

Couple of minutes ago you said VLS cannot be replenished at sea unless there was crane. Now I give you proof. What if a similar mechanism is being used to load the missiles?

@spectribution:

Don't play stupid. The Original claim was 32 reloads carried by Kolkata, with below deck reloading after removal of spent canister by crane from another ship (replenisher). Below deck reloading was disproven. So that leaves on deck loading. Wich means deck access point and canister handling on board.

Since VLU's load vertically you need a crane. This will not be an external crane of another ship for the same reason we don't use that for transferring a canister from one ship to another while at sea (the missile diameter is 54cm, the canister and VLU opening probably around 65cm. You'ld have to precisely position the external crane of another ship (probably some 50m away) exactly over that small opening on Kolkata to lift spent canister out or lower new canister into the VLU. And since that canister is at least 4,5m long, you have to hold stable in 3 dimensions while lifting or lowering it. I think you'd need a computer on a fully automated crane to succeed when in anyway underway. It is difficult even tied up alongside, while at anchor. Anyway, we are looking for an onboard crane.)

A strike down crane, which goes into the VLU for its own storage, is also a crane. The pro's and con's of a strike down crane, a device the USN abandoned in favor of more ready to fire missiles, have been pointed out.

You still need deck acces point for canister to come on deck and it that is not very near the VLU you may need a crane capable of lifting canister from main deck to VLU acces level deck or hangar top. The bigger/longer the required crane, the more cells it will eat up from the VLU and the fewer the number of ready rounds (and the larger the need to be off-line for reloading)

@Dillinger: we will stop responding here and now to let the thread go back to P15B.

 

[he-man]

Whats up with these names lie maitri etc!!
revathi!!

Man i am thoroughly confused and just too lethargic to search what they really are.
We need to have a better naming system

 

[Dillinger]

Whats up with these names lie maitri etc!!
revathi!!

Man i am thoroughly confused and just too lethargic to search what they really are.
We need to have a better naming system

Maitri is the long awaited Indo-French SR-SAM which will draw upon the VL-MICA missile, it will not be a CLOS munition like the Barak-1, it will therefore not require a fire director radar (STGR for the the Barak-1).

The Revathi is a 3D VSR for smaller ships, corvette, the Maitri's naval variant if fitted on said smaller ship will be cued by the Revathi and then switch its IR/RF seeker on for the end-game of the intercept. On any other ship it will use the existing sensor system.

 

[he-man]

Maitri is the long awaited Indo-French SR-SAM which will draw upon the VL-MICA missile, it will not be a CLOS munition like the Barak-1, it will therefore not require a fire director radar (STGR for the the Barak-1).

The Revathi is a 3D VSR for smaller ships, corvette, the Maitri's naval variant if fitted on said smaller ship will be cued by the Revathi and then switch its IR/RF seeker on for the end-game of the intercept. On any other ship it will use the existing sensor system.

Thanks man,,now let me get some real info on these and come back to bash these in a jingoistic way

 

[Dillinger]

@Penguin

Imagine-

IF the articles about the 15B are correct.

1) Flush deck, superstructure further refined for lower observability.

2) 8 LAMs, 8 supersonic sea skimming AShMs.

3) The MF-STAR plus a 3D VSR like the RAN-40L.

4) 32 Barak 8ER rounds with 120km interception range.

5) 32 SR-SAM

LORD! That would give the Type-45 a run for its money!!

 

[Penguin]

Maybe. But, Type 45 will do ABM, like Dutch LCF (32 SM2, 32 ESSM). Has a very advanced propulsion system, a crew of 190 (versus 325)

 

[Omega007]

@Penguin

Imagine-

IF the articles about the 15B are correct.

1) Flush deck, superstructure further refined for lower observability.

2) 8 LAMs, 8 supersonic sea skimming AShMs.

3) The MF-STAR plus a 3D VSR like the RAN-40L.

4) 32 Barak 8ER rounds with 120km interception range.

5) 32 SR-SAM

LORD! That would give the Type-45 a run for its money!!

Is there no way to put the 8 Nirbhay LACMs and a farther 24 more Barak 8ER into hull of the P 15B without having to reduce the number of AShMs??I mean,since ~30% of the space is kept empty,there shouldn't be any problem in installing the VLS units for these said missiles,no??One could simply take out those VLS units in future in case IN needs to stuff that space with something else.

In short,would it be possible for P 15B DDGs to carry a load of 56 (32+24) Barak 8ERs,32 VL Mica,16 Brahmos/Brahmos 2 AShMs and 8-10 rounds of Nirbhay LACMs without having to redesign the super structure,given the amount of space that's left empty is used ??

Thanks.