First Project-15B Bangalore-class DDG hull : satellite pics

[Dillinger]

I just can't get it. That "Pamphlet Hound" Prasun Sengupta gets quoted as some kinda technical authority. At best he is a "cut-paste" expert.
The whole idea of the VLS being reloaded under-deck or at Sea from the top is just 'over-the-top' or in simpler English; is utter BILGE.

Specially when the extra rounds are carried on the ship while the crane required for allegedly effecting the reload is on a resupply ship. EVEN if one wanted to effect a reload then carry the damn rounds on the resupply ship anyway since the reload cannot be effected without said ship. PSK does get somethings right, no doubt, often though its because he visits the various expos and OEMs and accumulates their brochures.

 

[spectribution]

I have no idea about whether the Barak-8ER will find place on the 15B, all I can say is that there indeed is a Barak-8ER with a range of 120km.

The spare space is meant for any future upgrade or retro-fitment, it was not exercised because 32 LR-SAM were felt to be adequate, which is not really a surprise, most ships carry just as many, even the SM-2/Aster-30 equipped vessels of Europe carry a similar number of LR-SAM, although the Kolkata carries a larger number of AShMs than said vessels.

The Kolkata lags behind in a solid state 3D VSR and a layered CIWS system (guns+QR SR-SAM).



Zabaan pe lagaam!

Although a very nice and succinct explanation.

Like in the last debate , I agree this 32 round thing is uncertain but what I simply cannot understand is so many reputed people simply saying contrary to what you suggest.

IN does not spend too much money upgrading old systems unless it is something dramatically new! The Rajput Class was upgraded as P 20M and Pechora stocks were running low and had become obsolete for a ship of that tonnage!

Leaving empty space like that is also stupid. It wastes space and on a ship space is real estate! Reloading mechanism maybe not, atleast 16 - 32 extra rounds carried on the ship yes! Unless the official was lying or shrooms were being used at Defence Expo 2014.

 

[Dillinger]

Like in the last debate , I agree this 32 round thing is uncertain but what I simply cannot understand is so many reputed people simply saying contrary to what you suggest.

IN does not spend too much money upgrading old systems unless it is something dramatically new! The Rajput Class was upgraded as P 20M and Pechora stocks were running low and had become obsolete for a ship of that tonnage!

Leaving empty space like that is also stupid. It wastes space and on a ship space is real estate! Reloading mechanism maybe not, atleast 16 - 32 extra rounds carried on the ship yes! Unless the official was lying or shrooms were being used at Defence Expo 2014.

No, its just PSK spinning about as usual.

This cannot bare repeating, THERE IS NO VLU SYSTEM ON THIS PLANET THAT CAN BE RELOADED BELOW DECK, NONE, ZILCH, NADA! IF PSK cannot wrap his head around this then there isn't much one can do.

PSK and co. are engaging in 3rd person reporting of what the alleged official allegedly said, which means there is a good scope for errors, and with PSK that's never too rare lest he's copy pasting brochures.

"Empty space" can be left on a ship for future retro-fitments and for ensuring that any capabilities-growth plan can be accommodated, nothing unheard of.

 

[spectribution]

No, its just PSK spinning about as usual.

This cannot bare repeating, THERE IS NO VLU SYSTEM ON THIS PLANET THAT CAN BE RELOADED BELOW DECK, NONE, ZILCH, NADA! IF PSK cannot wrap his head around this then there isn't much one can do.

PSK and co. are engaging in 3rd person reporting of what the alleged official allegedly said, which means there is a good scope for errors, and with PSK that's never too rare lest he's copy pasting brochures.

I DIDN'T SAY RELOADING MECHANISM! I said extra rounds carried on board! I personally spoke with said official who was with that model of INS Kolkata at the L&T stall. Infact next to it there was the diagram of the mini sub tender and a model of an underwater UAV.

My question was just that, why only 32 vls for AAW? He said it is a multipurpose missile and can stop Brahmos class missiles at 500m from ship with 90% accuracy on first and 99% on second missile!

He also said that another 16 or more rounds can be carried on board. Just to let you know INS Viraat carries extra Barak 1 missiles on board!

Even Ajai Shukla gave a same answer to the question. This guy publishes for Business Standard and is considered an authority on P 15A.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Capt.Popeye Also, would you like to comment upon prasun gupta's notion that the Barak VLU/VLS can be reloaded from beneath the deck by some internal system and therefore the Kolkatas carry an extra 32 LR-SAMs situated below deck in the area between the Brahmos VLS and the LR-SAM VLS? Honestly, he seems to be getting carried away these days.

Any belief that the VLS can be re-loaded from below deck borders on "hogwash". How can/will it be done? By an opening (or openings) into the VLS cells?
How will that happen? By a mechanical transfer/conveyance system? Is there enough space then below the VLS cells to allow that? If its from a horizontal direction, then is there adequate space around the cells to allow that?
Remember that the Missile is ejected from the cell(s) by gas pressure, so it is in a manner of speaking---- a pressure vessel. Then how many openings can you incorporate into them?

Somehow; when I read these assorted journos, when they get quoted in turn: I am left with the feeling that I am seeing the "Blind leading the Ignorant". I used this very same expression years ago here on PDF after reading about an IN sub that made contact with another while berthing at ND Bombay, and the journo wrote a panic-stricken item.

 

[Dillinger]

I DIDN'T SAY RELOADING MECHANISM! I said extra rounds carried on board! I personally spoke with said official who was with that model of INS Kolkata at the L&T stall. Infact next to it there was the diagram of the mini sub tender and a model of an underwater UAV.

My question was just that, why only 32 vls for AAW? He said it is a multipurpose missile and can stop Brahmos class missiles at 500m from ship with 90% accuracy on first and 99% on second missile!

He also said that another 16 or more rounds can be carried on board. Just to let you know INS Viraat carries extra Barak 1 missiles on board!

Even Ajai Shukla gave a same answer to the question. This guy publishes for Business Standard and is considered an authority on P 15A.

Its PSK who's been touting an internally contained reloading mechanism, which should tell you how wrong he can be.

Because the Viraat can actually effect reloads the Kolkata cannot, so AGAIN, why carry rounds which you cannot reload yourself? Why not use the same space, IF you must use it, for extra VLU for the same number of rounds?

I am telling you they have it wrong.

Any belief that the VLS can be re-loaded from below deck borders on "hogwash". How can/will it be done? By an opening (or openings) into the VLS cells?
How will that happen? By a mechanical transfer/conveyance system? Is there enough space then below the VLS cells to allow that? If its from a horizontal direction, then is there adequate space around the cells to allow that?
Remember that the Missile is ejected from the cell(s) by gas pressure, so it is in a manner of speaking---- a pressure vessel. Then how many openings can you incorporate into them?

Somehow; when I read these assorted journos, when they get quoted in turn: I am left with the feeling that I am seeing the "Blind leading the Ignorant". I used this very same expression years ago here on PDF after reading about an IN sub that made contact with another while berthing at ND Bombay, and the journo wrote a panic-stricken item.

Help spectribution Captain, apparently even if there is no reloading mech. there are still extra rounds being carried for some reason.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Its PSK who's been touting an internally contained reloading mechanism, which should tell you how wrong he can be.

Because the Viraat can actually effect reloads the Kolkata cannot, so AGAIN, why carry rounds which you cannot reload it yourself? Why not use the same space, IF you must use it, for extra VLU for the same number of rounds?

I am telling you they have it wrong.



Help spectribution Captain, apparently even if there is no reloading mech. there are still extra rounds being carried for some reason.

Maybe IN Ships have space to carry "Excess Baggage".........

 

[Penguin]

@Dillinger @Penguin - Kind sirs, if there is space & weight saved for another set of 32 Barak-8s, then why didn't the morons
install it all right now? If IN actually wants it sooner or later, it serves to just put in a VLS there - let the IN command
decide whether to put missiles in them right now or not.

If IN doesn't need any more space, then why was it designed like that? They might as well put provision for a
set of wings & jet engine, for when IN decides to make ships fly

--

And also, Dillinger sir, are you sure about Barak-8ER for P-15B with 110-120km range?

It is often a matter of when funding is available. The alternative is that there is no space and weight reserved, in which case 4x8 Barak-8 is it.

As for P15B with Barak-8ER, see e.g.

The four Project 15B destroyers are essentially upgraded Project 15A ships, with changes in the superstructure that will improve stealth and include better sound and infrared suppression systems. The displacement of each Project 15B ship will be about 8,000 tonnes and they will operate two helicopters.

The Project 15B ships will be armed with the Nirbhay land attack cruise missile, which has a 1,000 km range, the hypersonic Brahmos-2 anti-ship cruise missile, with a 300 km range and Extended Range Surface to Air Missile also known as Barak 8ER, which has a 120 km range.

Asitimes: Russia to help India build 4 Project 15B guided-missile destroyers
Russia to help India build 4 guided-missile destroyers | Russia & India Report
Note: First published in Russian in VPK

The 8000 tonnes is probably a 'liberal' estimate. If the ship is essentially unchanged, full load displacement will more likely be 7000-8000 tonnes.

The Project 15B Upgrade:
In January 2011, the Indian Cabinet Committee for Security approved four more Kolkata destroyers to be built as Project 15B. The Project 15B vessel will retain the hull form of Kolkata class destroyers and most of its systems. However, there will be some significant upgrades. For example, some structural changes in the superstructure will improve stealth and include better sound and infrared suppression. The Project 15B will also employ a fully flush deck. This will also improves stealth. The displacement of each Project 15B will be approximately 7,200 tons, a 200 ton addition over the Porject 15A Kolkatas
Project 15B will be armed with the new Nirbhay land attack cruise missile (1,000 km range), the hypersonic Brahmos-II anti-ship cruise missile (300 km range), and an Extended Range Surface to Air Missile (ER-SAM) (100 km range).
Construction of the first Project 15B, INS Bengaluru, D66, will begin by 2016.

AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE

 

[Dillinger]

It is often a matter of when funding is available. The alternative is that there is no space and weight reserved, in which case 4x8 Barak-8 is it.

As for P15B with Barak-8ER, see e.g.


Asitimes: Russia to help India build 4 Project 15B guided-missile destroyers
Russia to help India build 4 guided-missile destroyers | Russia & India Report
Note: First published in Russian in VPK

The 8000 tonnes is probably a 'liberal' estimate. If the ship is essentially unchanged, full load displacement will more likely be 7000-8000 tonnes.


AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE

The Nirbhay LAM seems unlikely, there have been some delays, reportedly some design changes, and the forces are more concerned with getting the sub launched and strategic variant online before engaging in anything else. But who knows, although we will end up with 8 Bmos AShMs and 8 LAMs, do you see any merit in reducing the count of the AShMs for just 8 LAMs?

 

[Penguin]

@Dillinger @Penguin - Kind sirs, if there is space & weight saved for another set of 32 Barak-8s, then why didn't the morons
install it all right now? If IN actually wants it sooner or later, it serves to just put in a VLS there - let the IN command
decide whether to put missiles in them right now or not.

If IN doesn't need any more space, then why was it designed like that?

See for comparable example the South Korean navy ships of the Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin class (KDX-II): starting the 4th unit addition VLUs were added. KDX-IIA is a variant with Aegis command system and greater extent of stealth features. As of 2011 ROKN planned to build at least 6 ships of this class, with a proposed displacement of 5500 ~ 7500 tons, over the 2019 to 2026 time frame. Apparently [couldn't confirm source in language readable to me], this ship design has also been offered to the Indian navy

 

[Penguin]

Baseline

AAW Variant with APAR/SMART-L

AAW variant with SPY1/AEGIS

Details Chungmugong Yi Sun Sin KDX-II Class Destroyer Republic of Korea ROK Navy 충무공 이순신급 구축함 ROKS Munmu the Great Dae Jo-yeong Wang Geon Gang Gam-chan Choe Yeong Hyundai Heavy Industries HHI DSME 대한민국 해군 datasheet pictures photos video specifications

@Penguin , I am impressed by your authority on naval matters. You look like someone who is in the field.
Can you point me out to an introduction page of yours?

Erhm... no

 

[Penguin]

Just to let you know INS Viraat carries extra Barak 1 missiles on board!

INS Viraat > a ship pre-equipped with lifts to carry munitions from ordnance magazines to flight deck (for the aircraft)
Barak 1 > a missile 4-6 guys could actually manhandle from horizontal to vertical and into a VLU with limited means (e.g. a trolley, a mobile deck crane).
Mobile deck crane, forklift > pieces of equipment commonly found on aircraft carriers but not on a destroyer

Weight98 kg
Length2.1 m
Diameter170 mm
Wingspan685 mm

Barak-8
Weight275 kg
Length4.5 m
Diameter0.54 m
Wingspan0.94 m

Leftmost is Barak 8, rightmost is Barak-1

[courtesy of an ACIG ace, the late B. Harry, whose presence and IN pictures are sorely mssed to this day]
ACIG Exclusives : Aero India 2005
The ordnance elevator is snugly to the left of the superstructure, forward of the crane park (about where the kuy in red is standing)

About where the guy in YELLOW is

Ordnace elevator on Hermes/Viraat is at flight deck, straight down from tallest black mast

 

[spectribution]

INS Viraat > a ship pre-equipped with lifts to carry munitions from ordnance magazines to flight deck (for the aircraft)
Barak 1 > a missile 4-6 guys could actually manhandle from horizontal to vertical and into a VLU with limited means (e.g. a trolley, a mobile deck crane).

Weight98 kg
Length2.1 m
Diameter170 mm
Wingspan685 mm

Barak-8
Weight275 kg
Length4.5 m
Diameter0.54 m
Wingspan0.94 m

Leftmost is Barak 8, rightmost is Barak-1

[courtesy of an ACIG ace, the late B. Harry, whose presence and IN pictures are sorely mssed to this day]
ACIG Exclusives : Aero India 2005
The ordnance elevator is snugly to the left of the superstructure, forward of the crane park (about where the kuy in red is standing)

That Harry B is the guy who said it about INS Viraat carrying the missiles!BTW I spoke to the oficial so unless you have blueprints of INS Kolkata by which you can show me anything else than internet snippets, the jurys out on this one!

 

[Penguin]

That Harry B is the guy who said it about INS Viraat carrying the missiles!BTW I spoke to the oficial so unless you have blueprints of INS Kolkata by which you can show me anything else than internet snippets, the jurys out on this one!

Untill his death in 2007, mister Harry was a well liked and respected contributor of photographic and other materials at for example ACIG.org http://forums. Bharat - rakshak . com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5345

Well, what is te problem? As I pointed out, I am not surprised INS Viraat carries spare rounds for its pair of 8 cell Barak launchers. As pointed out, Barak is under 100kg and just over 2m. As an aircraft carrier and former commando carrier, INS Viraat has 4x the displacement of Kolkata, is 50% longer and has 3x its beam and so a much larger and hence inherently stabler ship. Not only that, it comes equipped with a spatious flight deck for people and things to be move around freely, ordnance magazines, ordnance elevator, ordnance trolleys, and handling gear such as mobile deck crane or forklift. It can handle reloading Barak 1 independently while at sea.

I can't look inside Kolkata but any missile rounds carried internally that are not reloaded somehow below decks must come on deck somewhere and must be moved to the appropriate position to be lowered vertically into the VLU. How would Kolkata remove spent canister and load new canister while at sea? She's not like a carrier and doesn't come equipped with the same kind of ordnance handling equipment (of which one would incidentally likely see some external evidence e.g. an ordnance hatch, a jackstay).

I really do not see INS Deepak swinging over its crane while it is doing underway RAS at sea. Not in the last place because of the length of the crane and hence the narrow distance the ships would have to keep. But also, picture her attempting to reload the rear VLU. Position keeping (not just distance) would be a nightmare. INS Aditya would suffer the same issues of distance and position keeping, although she seems to have a potentially longer and articulated crane, which may be more suited so reacting to sea motion. And INS JYOTI doesn't carry a cargo handling crane at all (although it does have a starboardside crane for its boats).

 

[Dillinger]

Untill his death in 2007, mister Harry was a well liked and respected contributor of photographic and other materials at for example ACIG.org http://forums. Bharat - rakshak . com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5345

Well, what is te problem? As I pointed out, I am not surprised INS Viraat carries spare rounds for its pair of 8 cell Barak launchers. As pointed out, Barak is under 100kg and just over 2m. As an aircraft carrier and former commando carrier, INS Viraat has 4x the displacement of Kolkata, is 50% longer and has 3x its beam a much larger and is hence inherently a stabler ship. Not only that, it comes equipped with a spatious flight deck for people and things to be move around freely, ordnance magazines, ordnance elevator, ordnance trolleys, and handling gear such as mobile deck crane or forklift. It can handle reloading Barak 1 independently while at sea.

I can't look inside Kolkata but any missile rounds carried internally that are not reloaded somehow below decks must come on deck somewhere and must be moved to the appropriate position to be lowered vertically into the VLU. How would Kolkata remove spent canister and load new canister while at sea? She's not like a carrier and doesn't come equipped with the same kind of ordnance handling equipment (of which one would incidentally likely see some external evidence e.g. an ordnance hatch, a jackstay). I really do not see INS Deepak swinging over its crane while it is doing underway RAS at sea. Not in the last place because of the length of the crane and hence the narrow distance the ships would have to keep. INS Aditya would suffer tha same issues. And INS JYOTI don't carry such a crane (although it does have a starboardside crane for its boats).

An exercise in futility my friend.

No ordinance elevators, no crane appropriately placed for handling munitions, most importantly absolutely no rationale behind the arrangement and yet people have been lapping up what Mr. Sengupta and co. has been offloading.