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first mock dogfights for F-22, Typhoon, Rafale Pakistan Participated

Jamshed

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The United Arab Emirates not only attracted the Lockheed Martin F-22 to the Dubai air show, but also staged perhaps the first mock dogfights between F-22s, Dassault Rafales and Eurofighter Typhoons.

In parallel with the air show, the advanced tactical leadership course at Al Dhafra air base near Abu Dhabi hosted a five-nation fighter exercise, says the UK Royal Air Force.

France, the UK and the USA each sent six of their top-line fighters to the exercise, and those were joined by jets from the UAE and Pakistan. The Abu Dhabi manoeuvres marked the first publicly known event where the F-22 met Europe's two most advanced fighters.

The Rafale previously flew against USAF Boeing F-15Cs during the Red Flag exercise at Nellis AFB in August 2008. The USAF, however, withheld the F-22 from the Red Flag manoeuvres, which also included South Korean Boeing F-15Ks and Indian air force Sukhoi Su-30MKIs.

Multinational exercises provide air forces the rare opportunity to become exposed to the tactics, capabilities and limitations of countries using rival equipment.

ASIAN DEFENCE: UAE hosts first mock dogfights for F-22, Typhoon, Rafale
 
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too many doubts, under what circumstances did the USAF allowed F-22 fight when they did not allow it previously???
 
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too many doubts, under what circumstances did the USAF allowed F-22 fight when they did not allow it previously???

USAF has been forcibly stopped to place any more orders for F22 (by congress). Lockheed Martin and related aircraft manufacturing industries are pushing to export F22 if local (USAF) orders are withdrawn, and for that, they have began to marketing campaign to closest US allies i.e. UK, Australia, Israel etc.
 
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USAF has been forcibly stopped to place any more orders for F22 (by congress). Lockheed Martin and related aircraft manufacturing industries are pushing to export F22 if local (USAF) orders are withdrawn, and for that, they have began to marketing campaign to closest US allies i.e. UK, Australia, Israel etc.

US would rather put JSF to or new silent eagle to export markets, btw they put F-22 to an end in order to go ahead with a full scale JSF production. F-22 EX, not in question. Even Japan, who was pushing US hard for Raptors, and even promised to pay the cost of downgrading, has now set its eyes on JSF:coffee:
 
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US would rather put JSF to or new silent eagle to export markets, btw they put F-22 to an end in order to go ahead with a full scale JSF production. F-22 EX, not in question. Even Japan, who was pushing US hard for Raptors, and even promised to pay the cost of downgrading, has now set its eyes on JSF:coffee:

A bill to allow F22 has already been drafted, whether it is accepted or rejected is not finalized yet.

I am quoting the following from another forum ...


<QUOTE>

SECTION-1250: REPORT ON POTENTIAL FOREIGN MILITARY SALES OF THE F–22A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

(A) REPORT REQUIRED: Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall, in coordination with the Secretary of State and in consultation with the Secretary of the Air Force, submit to the congressional defense committees, the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives a report on potential foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(B) ELEMENTS: The report required by subsection shall include the following:

(1) An estimate of the costs to the United States Government, industry, and any foreign military sales customer of developing an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(2) An assessment whether an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft is technically feasible and executable, and, if so, a timeline for achieving an exportable version of the aircraft.

(3) An assessment of the potential strategic implications of permitting foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft.

(4) An identification of any modifications to current law that are required to authorize foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(C) ADDITIONAL REPORT REQUIRED: The Secretary of Defense shall enter into an agreement with a federally funded research and development center to submit, not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, to the committees identified in subsection (a), through the Secretary of Defense, a report on the impact of foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft on the United States aerospace and aviation industry, and the advantages and disadvantages of such sales for sustaining that industry."

Both the House of Representives and the Senate have also passed the H.R. 3326 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010) on 30 July 2009 and 6 October 2009 respectively which will be consider by the House and Senate conference and will then be presented to the President for his signature contained the following section:

"SECTION-8056: None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government: Provided, That the Department of Defense may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop a future export version of the F-22A that protects classified and sensitive information, technologies and U.S. war fighting capabilities."

</QUOTE>
 
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A bill to allow F22 has already been drafted, whether it is accepted or rejected is not finalized yet.

I am quoting the following from another forum ...


<QUOTE>

SECTION-1250: REPORT ON POTENTIAL FOREIGN MILITARY SALES OF THE F–22A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

(A) REPORT REQUIRED: Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall, in coordination with the Secretary of State and in consultation with the Secretary of the Air Force, submit to the congressional defense committees, the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives a report on potential foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(B) ELEMENTS: The report required by subsection shall include the following:

(1) An estimate of the costs to the United States Government, industry, and any foreign military sales customer of developing an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(2) An assessment whether an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft is technically feasible and executable, and, if so, a timeline for achieving an exportable version of the aircraft.

(3) An assessment of the potential strategic implications of permitting foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft.

(4) An identification of any modifications to current law that are required to authorize foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(C) ADDITIONAL REPORT REQUIRED: The Secretary of Defense shall enter into an agreement with a federally funded research and development center to submit, not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, to the committees identified in subsection (a), through the Secretary of Defense, a report on the impact of foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft on the United States aerospace and aviation industry, and the advantages and disadvantages of such sales for sustaining that industry."

Both the House of Representives and the Senate have also passed the H.R. 3326 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010) on 30 July 2009 and 6 October 2009 respectively which will be consider by the House and Senate conference and will then be presented to the President for his signature contained the following section:

"SECTION-8056: None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government: Provided, That the Department of Defense may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop a future export version of the F-22A that protects classified and sensitive information, technologies and U.S. war fighting capabilities."

</QUOTE>

Ya i heard about that as well when there was a lot of buzz from Japan, But the it's not that simple as you see it a report on F-22 export sights
A second proliferation issue relates to the effect an F-22 sale could have on other countries. Other
countries in the region could perceive the F-22 as causing an imbalance of military power in favor
of Japan, and inciting them to seek their own advanced aircraft or defensive systems. Once Japan
sets the precedent of F-22 export, other countries might pressure U.S. policy makers to sell them
F-22s. Israel, for example, has reportedly expressed interest in the F-22.
so its not that simple as I see it and since F-22 line is closed now, I don't see US opening it again for exports
 
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Which fighters would have Pakiatan sent....? F-16 most probably...

I wonder how would they fare against the mighty F-22
 
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Ya i heard about that as well when there was a lot of buzz from Japan, But the it's not that simple as you see it a report on F-22 export sights

so its not that simple as I see it and since F-22 line is closed now, I don't see US opening it again for exports

I am not saying that they are exporting tomorrow ... but they have changed their status from "Will not export to anyone" to "Wait, let us think it through".
 
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I am not saying that they are exporting tomorrow ... but they have changed their status from "Will not export to anyone" to "Wait, let us think it through".
But what I am saying is that when they have already two products ready for export markets, (SE and JSF) and given the technological sophistication of F-22, USAF would not prefer to hand their prime weapon over to others, even though watered down. Even in case of JSF, which is meant for international markets, US is hesitant to transfer the source codes to its partners
Controversy on JSF Technology Hides Grab for Work-Share


(Source: defense-aerospace.com; issued March 24, 2006)



by Giovanni de Briganti


PARIS --- The ongoing debate about JSF-related technology transfer is a smoke screen designed to deflect attention from some countries’ attempts to obtain a larger share of production work, according to some European officials closely involved in the program.

This is the reason most partners have not made a crucial issue of technology transfer, even though they all face the same constraints on access to software source codes and other proprietary technology, the officials said.

“The controversy about source codes that is being played out in the media is a negotiating ploy,” an Italian official told defense-aerospace.com. “But it’s a fairy tale: nobody can realistically expect to have total access to those codes, and especially not for free. Source codes are the very core of any program’s intellectual property, and as such are naturally closely guarded by their owners.”

The official said that buyers of the Joint Strike Fighter will be able to operate the aircraft with only limited access to the source codes, so focusing the debate on full access is “part of a game of give-and-take in industrial negotiations.” He noted that the Italian air force does not have full access to German-developed source codes for the Tornado fighter-bombers it has operated for decades, and that Brazil operates its AMX fighters without having access to its Italian-developed flight control software codes. This has not hampered operations, nor support, nor even upgrades, he said.

That is not to say that there are no technology issues to be resolved. “Very interestingly, [from] the representatives of the U.K., Italy and Australia, I hear a strong, unified voice of concern, complaint, even grievance, about the question of technology transfer, and I think you're right,” Senator Joseph Lieberman, a member of the US Senate’s Armed Services Committee, said during a March 14 hearing on the JSF program, according to a transcript obtained by defense-aerospace.com.

Australian and Italian officials appearing before the committee stressed that their primary concerns were that the program remain on cost and on schedule, and that by comparison all other aspects are secondary.

Some JSF partner countries are optimistic that an acceptable compromise can be reached on the source code issue. “Italy, like the other program participants, is discussing with the United States various options to establish a regional capability for ‘software reprogramming’ in Europe,” Lt. Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, head of Research and Development programs at the Italian Ministry of Defense, told defense-aerospace.com. “Italy concurs with the favorable results of the JSF program’s recent Critical Design Review, and has not identified any other outstanding issues,” Bernardis said.

A Dutch official, noting that Dutch industry has already obtained more than 400 million euros in JSF-related work, said that “we are quite happy with the program so far.” The official added that Britain declined to attend the March 7 meeting of European JSF partners in Noordwijk, the Netherlands, “because it prefers to discuss things on a bilateral basis with the United States,” implying that its current concerns are different from those of the other partners.

“A lot of it is political grandstanding, as in Denmark, the Netherlands and even in Norway the air force staffs have no real operational problem with the way the program is going,” another European official told defense-aerospace.com. “In some countries, it’s political, and in others it’s related to work-share; that’s all there is to it.”

Italy has concluded an agreement in principle to obtain a local JSF assembly line and a support capability that will allow it to manage and support the aircraft to its satisfaction, although this must now be confirmed in the MoU due to be signed by year-end for the JSF’s Production, Sustainment and Follow-On Development phase.

Turkey appears satisfied by the latest offer of production work-share for its continued participation in the program, which has calmed earlier misgivings. Lockheed-Martin this week improved its original offer with a high-technology work package that could be worth as much as $5 billion, Turkish Daily News reported March 22. The package includes production of composite airframe parts, of the center fuselage, and possibly also a local assembly line at the Ankara factory of Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).

“The plan for the production of the center fuselage will earn Turkey's local industry advanced composite manufacturing capabilities with future technology," a Turkish defense procurement official told TDN, adding “That would seal our commitment to the program.”

One potential problem, though, is that Britain also expects a local assembly line for the 150 JSFs it plans to buy, and setting up three separate assembly lines in Europe alone, as well as a fourth one in Australia, might add to the JSF’s production costs and complexity. (ends)
 
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MIDDLE EAST/AFRICA
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

United Arab Emirates hosts air-combat exercise

Tim Ripley JDW Correspondent - London

The United Arab Emirates ( UAE) is currently playing host to an air-combat exercise featuring four of the world's most advanced fighter aircraft.

Exercise 'Iron Falcon', which runs until 10 December, will see six US Air Force (USAF) Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptors, six UK Royal Air Force (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoons, six French Air Force Dassault Rafales and a number of UAE Air Force and Air Defence (UAE AF&AD) Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60 Desert Falcons operating out of the UAE's Air Warfare Centre at Al Dhafra airbase, near Abu Dhabi.

This is the first time that the Raptor has deployed to the Middle East.

The long-awaited showdown between the so-called fourth and fifth Generation fighters, however, will not give the marketers of the world's aerospace industry the chance to grade their rival products in simulated combat. Military sources in the Middle East have told Jane's that the Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 and F-16E/F are all going to be operating together as the 'blue force', while UAE AF&AD and French air force Mirage 2000s will be acting as the enemy 'red force'.

The Pakistan Air Force has also deployed a contingent of Chengdu F-7 fighters to 'Iron Falcon' but it is unclear if they will be participating as blue or red forces. The exercise was described as a pilot tactical leadership event to give participants the chance to experience simulated air combat involving formations of multiple aircraft.

A Western military source played down the prospect of the Raptor, Typhoon and Rafale going head-to-head in the exercise. "If, however, this does happen," he said, "it will purely be down to exercise planning. If so then the F-22s and Typhoons could be fighting together at full capability. If they were adversaries (red against blue) then one of the aircraft would operate as a 'threat' aircraft and would, therefore, have a downgraded capability - so it is not a full-on comparison fight."


F-7PGs against 4th-Gen fighters - WTF!!!
 
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The only thing missing from this is Su30s and Su35s from russia and J10s from China.
If it was ever possible, it will combine the best aircrafts from ALL-OVER the world in a single exercise.

Regards,
Sapper
 
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The Pakistan Air Force has also deployed a contingent of Chengdu F-7 fighters to 'Iron Falcon' but it is unclear if they will be participating as blue or red forces. The exercise was described as a pilot tactical leadership event to give participants the chance to experience simulated air combat involving formations of multiple aircraft.

F-7PGs against 4th-Gen fighters - WTF!!!

F-7 against F-22. WHAT A MATCH?
If we expect them to guard against Su-30MKIs, then why not the F-22. Either way, we're punching way over our weight.

It's also about DACT. The UAEAF has F-16s, so does the USAF, so I guess Pakistan was asked to bring something different. Just speculating here. Though, I must say, at least a small detachment of the F-16s was in order. Hopefully, news will come out of this exercise soon enough.
 
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Ya i heard about that as well when there was a lot of buzz from Japan, But the it's not that simple as you see it a report on F-22 export sights

so its not that simple as I see it and since F-22 line is closed now, I don't see US opening it again for exports

actually f-22 line is not closed. they are still finishing up the last of the 187 the air force bought. If they had approved more aircraft earlier in the year it simply would have allowed the production line to continue operating once the initial order was finished. As of November 2009 145 had been finished.
 
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