First Block 2 JF-17s under construction in Pakistan

[Luftwaffe]

@That Guy my friend, hope now after what Oscar has penned down you would Agree with me...

 

[That Guy]

@That Guy my friend, hope now after what Oscar has penned down you would Agree with me...

I still have my opinion. I don't necessarily agree even with Oscar, but I don't want to argue this further.

 

[The SC]

Do not know what the consequences will be with a fleet of 500 JF-17, all blocks included, with strong dedicated squadrons, Blocks 1 and 2 with current radar (a good one), and the next blocks with AESA radars on them. And this besides the other existing and potential platforms like more F-16s and the possibility of the M2K-9 from the UAE.
I know it will take a better economy than now , but Pakistan is heading straight towards that with the Gas pipeline with Iran, the Gwadar port and the massive investments in mega projects jointly with China.
The 500 number is not farfetched, since tiny Usrael has at least 600 modern warplanes in its inventory.
It will take around 10 billion dollars for these 500 JF-17s to be manufactured at an average cost of 18 million each, with accelerated production rates to up to 50 a year, the current potential with the current economy is up to 25 a year, with a better economy this rate can increase gradually to be doubled. When we see that KSA is paying 80 billion dollars for less than 100 warplanes, although they are the most advanced and sophisticated in the world currently as generation 4.5 or 4.75. The 10 billion dollars Pakistan can pay for these JF-17s, spread on 10 to 15 years is not that much and can be afforded if the choice is made, that is around 700 million to a billion Dollars a year, to build an almost (if not) invincible deterrent air force fleet.
And since air superiority is the key to wnning a war, I am all for it, and you Pakistanis?

 

[rockstarIN]

BVR scenario is a very complex one.. Its not like JFT with small rcs finds large rcs MKI and shoot down..
There are many points to note down..

The effective range of a bvr missile is 1/5 th of range stated( this stated range is only an optimal range at most desired envionment).. Example: effective range of AMRAAM is only 20-25km..
The main aim of todays bvr missiles are not range but maximum NEZ( Non escape zone).. Targeted fighter planes can easily overrun( turn 180deg and run) a bvr missile if they finds it outside NEZ cone.. NEZ of all present bvr missiles are within 10 km only.. Example: NEZ of AMRAAM is only 5-8 km..

If the targeted plane is inside the NEZ, still PK ( Probability of kill) is very low as Jets can easily out maneuver a bvr missile.. For example:. AIM-120 travels at Mach 4, and can pull 30 g within its NEZ, yet it would need 768 Gs to reliably hit a modern fighter which is maneuvering at corner speed of Mach 0,5, or 237 Gs if target is still at standard cruise speed of Mach 0,9, giving Pk between 3% and 13%; this fits perfectly with 8% Pk demonstrated against (mostly) maneuvering aircraft without ECM to date. If fighter is maneuvering at corner speed, but is still limited to 9 g by FCS (is not in override), BVR missile Pk is only 5.2%.
Now take the real achievement of aim 120.. 46% pk.. Looks better but all targets are within 20km, no connection to ECM or maneuvering. That is actually out of 46%, there is 93% for chance of miss. Thus BVR missile Pk against aware, maneuvering opponent using modern ECM suite is around 3%..

Bvr capability comparison with respect to RCS makes no sense because of the limits of bvr missiles.... Actually F15 ,SU27 ,F22 are actual bvr fighters.. For better bvr capability..
1. MKI has better radar..
2. Better ECM and IRCM..
3. More maneuverable( thrust vectored)
4. More speed, more missiles, more range
Etc.. Etc..
JFT and MKI are not comparable at all in bvr scenario..

Underestimation of BVRs I must say. The ranges you mentioned is correct (20-25 km) when the fight happens at very low level. There is a high chance of exchanging blows well in higher altitudes which will be the preference of heavy air superiority fighters who gave top cover. Forget the RCS, any shot less than 45 km is a dangerous one, however all good pilot choose to come as close as possible in maximum speed to get the Non escape zone widens. Even the on board radar+ tail chase range of most BVRs will be 10-15 km.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I still have my opinion. I don't necessarily agree even with Oscar, but I don't want to argue this further.

No problem your opinion heard, do understand this time no arab, iranian or some other air force is going to send their inventory to help us out. Whatever PAF has would be used to its fullest potential in various roles/scenarios against anything IAF sends across the border.

 

[Lil Mathew]

Underestimation of BVRs I must say. The ranges you mentioned is correct (20-25 km) when the fight happens at very low level. There is a high chance of exchanging blows well in higher altitudes which will be the preference of heavy air superiority fighters who gave top cover. Forget the RCS, any shot less than 45 km is a dangerous one, however all good pilot choose to come as close as possible in maximum speed to get the Non escape zone widens. Even the on board radar+ tail chase range of most BVRs will be 10-15 km.

Not an under estimation of BVR.. The whole new era of fifth generation(f22,f35,pmf,j20....) is based on BVR theory.. See early, approach as near as possible without detection, ensure a kill with bvr, make incoming missiles blind by stopping radar activities..etc etc..
But here the scenario is different.. Both jft and su 30 are non stealth.. Claiming killing su30 first only because of its RCS makes no sense.. I countered that.. Then what is the need of such an expensive plane in such big numbers..

 

[Raidish520]

We got a little Air Force and a little Navy only thing which keeps us going is some of our Tech and Training.

 

[shanis]

JF -17 is 4 th gen jet ... not 3rd gen jet.. it is cost effective fighter... that doesn't mean It is defenceless. .. Indian doctrine is different to Pak. ... don't under estimate your foe like some fan boys under estimating mki capabilities because of RCS ..

yup jf-17 is 4th generation jet and we are not under estimate mki ... we know mki is better and bigger aircraft with good load ... but dear you are don't under estimate JF-17 thunder abilities...
PAF trying to include all latest and good load in jf-17 thunder which will be used in future

 

[Zhukov]

We got a little Air Force and a little Navy only thing which keeps us going is some of our Tech and Training.

Yeah right
190~ interceptors
130~ mirage 3 5 multirole fighters
78 F16 fighting falcons Blk52 and MLU
and 60~ JF17 multirole Fighters and counting

Thats really tiny

 

[Raidish520]

Yeah

ng falcons Blk52 and MLU
and 60~ JF17

Yeah right
190~ interceptors
130~ mirage 3 5 multirole fighters
78 F16 fighting falcons Blk52 and MLU
and 60~ JF17 multirole Fighters and counting
Thats really tiny

That still small compare to USA, Russia or even China.
Bro the medium size which we need now at this time of Destruction is at least 600 jets.+ upgraded and crew Well Trained.

 

[Luftwaffe]

PAF not even in top 15 air forces in world let alone USA, RUSSIA, CHINA..

The topic is not comparison and numbers, PAF is not projected to be a Global Force used for any Invasion or Intl War aspirations.

However PAF is modernizing upgrading being a regional force to protect its Nation and Assets and fight any misadventure from across the borders.

North Korea has 1200+ Aircrafts all vintage would you consider it into top 15?

 

[Etilla]

Does this mean that block1 construction is over?

And how many blk 2 will be made by CAC in China?

 

[Bratva]

Does this mean that block1 construction is over?

And how many blk 2 will be made by CAC in China?

It's been 10 months since Block-1 production ended.

Blk-2 will be made in Pakistan not in china.

 

[Etilla]

It's been 10 months since Block-1 production ended.

Blk-2 will be made in Pakistan not in china.

So the 50-50-50 production schedule has not been changed?

 

[Bratva]

So the 50-50-50 production schedule has not been changed?

When you know about such arrangement, what was your purpose of asking, " how many blk 2 will be made by CAC in China " ?