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First batch of license built T-90 tanks

Thanks for the info buddy!

So the reason for the next generation Bofors substitute is more someone not wanting to look for a tech transfer partner than a tech transfer partner not being available or us not capable of indegeneously designing and manufacturing such a gun?

Isnt a tank basically a big mobile gun with protection for its operating crew?

Isnt there something like off-patent reverse engineering in defense equipment manufacturing like in the pharma/biotech industry?

Cheers, Doc
 
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Thanks for the info buddy!

You are always welcome.

So the reason for the next generation Bofors substitute is more someone not wanting to look for a tech transfer partner than a tech transfer partner not being available or us not capable of indegeneously designing and manufacturing such a gun?

No Idea.
Isnt a tank basically a big mobile gun with protection for its operating crew?

A tank is a tracked, armoured fighting vehicle designed for front-line combat which combines operational mobility and tactical offensive and defensive capabilities. Firepower is normally provided by a large-calibre main gun in a rotating turret and secondary machine guns, while heavy armour and all-terrain mobility provide protection for the tank and its crew, allowing it to perform all primary tasks of the armoured troops on the battlefield.

GB
 
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I dont care what you say .. That T-90 is a bad mother shutyomouth
 
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So the main tactical attributes of a tank would be flexible mobile protected firepower.

I am still trying to understand whether the gun like the bofors is so very different from the main gun of a tank ..... and if yes, how? Is it accuracy, or range, or ammunition, or utility?

At a visit to one of my batchmates (I cannot disclose the location here), I saw these big huge highly complex guns which did not have to be towed but could move on their own ..... though admittedly not as far or as fast as a tank ...... and with far less protection for the crew. Dont remember what they were called or what class of weaponry they belonged to but they had a huge array of radars, and displays, and a scary mess of gadgetry ..... very Star Trekish! :)

Cheers, Doc
 
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However things with tanks, aircrafts have not gone with the way we wanted.

The situation is improving with the participation of Pvt companies which was allowed in 2004. ATV, Pinaka, NAMICA are some of the examples of success which involved pvt firms.

GB

I concur absolutely. MBT, LCA and ALH are some areas DRDO has dragged its backside for a disproportionately long period of time. There are other areas as well that have not worked out or have taken too long to fructify.

It has also become fashionable to blame corruption in higher echelons to cover up for failures of the DRDO. If and when a weapon system is right for the Army/Air Force/Navy, it will be inducted into the services. If one goes by that thumb rule and reposes full faith and trust on the people on whom the defense of our nation has been entrusted, we will never go wrong in our assessments. Ultimately it is not the scientists from DRDO who will use the equipment. So it is not their call at all.

I fully endorse the feelings of garibnawaz, the state run DRDO is really at its wits end regarding certain projects and needs a fresh influx of ideas and enthusiasm from the private sector (something they have vehemently opposed all along). Also raising the FDI cap to 49% wont hurt.
 
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So the main tactical attributes of a tank would be flexible mobile protected firepower.

I am still trying to understand whether the gun like the bofors is so very different from the main gun of a tank ..... and if yes, how? Is it accuracy, or range, or ammunition, or utility?


Cheers, Doc

FH-77 has a range of 21 kms. Tank gun can't fire that long.

Artillary is used to support the infantry and armor. They can't see what they are firing. A forward obervation artilaary officer set target for the artilary guns who set themselves as per the target range. Different type of shells are used for different types of targets.

Where as a Tank protects infantry, Infantry fighting vechicles and APC on the battlefield from the enemy tanks and anti tank offensives.

Tanks are also used to destroy bunkers or enemy buildings if need arises.

The gun of a T-90 has an effective range of 100 m to 6 km.

GB
 
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I concur absolutely. MBT, LCA and ALH are some areas DRDO has dragged its backside for a disproportionately long period of time. There are other areas as well that have not worked out or have taken too long to fructify.

It has also become fashionable to blame corruption in higher echelons to cover up for failures of the DRDO. If and when a weapon system is right for the Army/Air Force/Navy, it will be inducted into the services. If one goes by that thumb rule and reposes full faith and trust on the people on whom the defense of our nation has been entrusted, we will never go wrong in our assessments. Ultimately it is not the scientists from DRDO who will use the equipment. So it is not their call at all.

I fully endorse the feelings of garibnawaz, the state run DRDO is really at its wits end regarding certain projects and needs a fresh influx of ideas and enthusiasm from the private sector (something they have vehemently opposed all along). Also raising the FDI cap to 49% wont hurt.

DRDO also faces brain drain. Why work with DRDO when private sector can offer you triple the salary. Certain Indian establishments such as ISRO, DRDO, HAL, MDL etc should scrap Government pay scales and should do something on the verge of pvt.sector pay scale in order to attract young and talented people.

GB
 
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Actually, I'll blame Bezerk here for his "flower vomit" comments and other worthless "trash-talk".

In the absence of any real technical knowledge, "trash-talk" is the only mode of discussion here it seems.

Before you point your fingers around like a complete ignorant, know this that you're a bit late in this discussion. A couple of hardcore "Trash" comments from your Indian friends have already been removed from this thread. They were becoming a little too "sensitive" on a Defence Forum. The fault lies with them for acting like little girls, not anyone else. "Death_Invader" is banned for all those reasons.

The Indian members should leave all their petty feelings behind and stop acting like over-the-top drama queens over a little harmless humour. You're at a Pakistan defence forum and we've been generous enough to give you folks the right to get your point across. Don't take that for granted and stay in your "emotional" limits. Don't go around answering "Rhetorical" questions.

Anyway, Moving on. Back to the topic.
 
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As a moderator I expected respect from you for the other cultures. I guess I was wrong and expected too much from you.

GB

You do realize that we do the same 'flower overdose' in Pakistan as well don't you? Weddings, celebrations etc.

It comes across as 'paindoo', as we call certain crass things in Pakistan, and I thought Bezerks characterization of the effect was funny - nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting your or my culture ...
 
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sorry but i read an article where it stated that bhisma does have shotra suite??


or either this article is wrong
http://www.defencejournal.com/apr99/t-90.htm
India's Latest Armour Addition - the T-90s

India's Latest
Armour Addition- the T-90s

Columnist ADAM GEIBEL writes about the addition of the Russian T-90 to India's armour inventory

Pakistan's purchase of 320 Ukrainian T-80UD/T-84 MBT in 1996 caused a rippling reaction in the Indian Army and India's defence establishment. Quite simply, successful integration of the Ukrainian tanks would create a shift unacceptable to India in the region's conventional ground power. With the indigenous 'ARJUN' MBT still nowhere near series production and the capacity to convert its existing fleet of T-72M1's to the upgraded 'Ajeya'/Rhino variation apparently overloading its Avadi facility, they began to look for external sources of modern MBTs. Two Russian tanks and two suppliers were short-listed; Rosvoorouzhenie's T-90 and Prom-Export's T-72S.

Russia's T-72S was an early favourite, since it's simply a product-improved T-72 that would easily match the Indian's current logistical stocks. By the early-1990s, Russia's Uralvagonzavod State Production Association had developed and put into series production the T-90S, which incorporated features of both the T-72 and T-80 tank families.

The Russian's T-90 offer was made to Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav during his September 1997 visit and early in 1998, the Indian Government began negotiations with the Russians to add this MBT to its inventory. Dissenting Indian Army officers quickly claimed that they did not need (nor could they afford) this tank.

An Indian technical evaluation team went to Russia in February 1998 to test the T-90 at one of Russia's proving grounds and came back with praise for the Russian tank (other Indian Army officers doubted the testing could be done in mid-winter snow). The Russians produced an initial lot of 150 T-90's of which 94 equipped the Siberian Military District's 21st Motorized Rifle Division and a few were sent to the 5th 'Don' Guards Tank Division (stationed in Buryatiya). This heightened interest was due in part to the Indian Army's doubts about the T-72S' abilities, since the testing tankers at Babina (Jhansi) found that Prom-Export had repainted and overhauled old T-72's that were apparently offered as 'new'.

With the T-90S going into final production still some time away, India continued to express an interest despite doubts about the Uralvagonzavod (Nizhny Tagil) factory's ability to supply the tank. While it has many of the same features, the Indian Army considers the T-90 even lesser capability than the Ajeya (eg; lacking the Global Positioning System). Both the MOD and DRDO want the funds directed to the Arjun project and the T-72 production line at Avadi, near Chennai (At a cost of Rs 4,000 crore, it has a capacity to retrofit 250 tanks per year).

The Indian Army finally announced a decision to buy two Regiments worth in early November, 1998, to augment it's armoured forces on the western border with Pakistan. While Indian Armoured Regiments usually field 45 MBTs, a figure of only 70 tanks has been mentioned. This smaller deal, would still worth $US 250 million (Rs 800 crore).

One early estimate the Indian press floated for a 300-tank T-90 deal (a figure the Russian Defence Ministry obviously wanted) was $US1 billion (Rs 3,200 crore), a fraction of which would ensure the Arjun and Ajeya projects completion. This placed the individual T-90S price at $US 3.75 million (Rs 12 crore).

In addition to trials at the Indian Armoured Corps Center and School (at Ahmadnagar) with hot weather tests in the Rajasthan desert, some T-90S' were deployed during Exercise 'Shiv Shakti' in November/December 1998. An Indian defence spokesman said, 'Shiv Shakti' was the biggest exercise in a decade and involved about 66,000 soldiers (1,800 senior officers, 4,500 junior officers and 60,000 troops (known as 'jawans'). They were equipped with 700 combat vehicles, 300 tanks and 200 guns. An Indian air force spokesman said 130 planes and 30 helicopters would back the exercise.'

The biggest surprise concerning the Indian T-90S came in late December 1998, when the Indian media announced that the deal would total 200 T-90S. In January, 1999, the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs (CCPA) had approved the purchase of 310 tanks in a deal totalling $US 1.176 billion (Rs. 5,000 crore). This was enough to equip five regiments, with sum of the $US 3.78 million, tanks left over for 'war reserve' and spares. There was also Indian media speculation that the Army might ultimately acquire 440 T-90S.

About 100 T-90S will be initially purchased outright, with the rest produced under licence at Avadi. The first regiments equipped by mid-1999 will be deployed near the Pakistani border in the Rajasthan desert region and neighbouring Punjab state.

Political repercussions in India continued into January 1999, with former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda accused the BJP-led government pursuing the T-90S deal in a covert manner. Declining to reveal the identity of the middlemen arms merchants whom he alleged were forcing the government to buy the T-90S, Gowda claimed that an inquiry would reveal the truth.

He also wanted the T-72S re-evaluated, claiming it was superior to the T-90; the T-90S was very expensive, had not been tested under Indian weather conditions and was not likely to be inducted even in the Russian army (though this was primarily because Moscow has not been able to afford to purchase a new tank family).

While the T-90S was still under trial, a military officer (at Army headquarters, on the deputy chief of Army staff level) closely associated with the T-90's evaluation stated that any suggestion of the T-72S superiority stemmed from 'motivated interest'. The deal was considered so lucrative that arms agents representing PROM-EXPORTS T-72S were willing to go to any length to change the Army's preference for Rosvoorouzhenie's T-90S.

Promexport even launched a major public relations offensive, inviting journalists for exclusive interviews at five-star hotels, showing confidential documents (including part of a Defence Ministry file) that favoured their T-72S and indicated that the T-72S would cost $US 705,000 (Rs 3 crore) less than the T-90S. Prom-Export also claimed that the T-90s hadn't been extensively tested in the Indian climate extremes. Rosvoorouzhenie simply touted that it's tanks were better.

With the most-recent rumours of the ARJUN being that only 90 would be built, the Indian Army's acquisition of the T-90S and it's initial deployment in the Rajasthan desert indicate that these will be dedicated 'Pakistani T-80UD/T-84 Killers'.

Unique Features of the T-90S

In addition to conventional armour, the T-90S is fitted with explosive reactive armour (ERA) and an NBC protection suite. It can also be fitted with mine-clearing equipment.

The T-90's 1A4GT main gun stabilizer and power system has a commander's manual override - unusual for Soviet/Russian designed tanks. However, this system is not used to fire the AT-11 missiles.

The AT-11 system is meant to engage tanks fitted with ERA and low-flying aerial targets (such as helicopters) at ranges up to 5 km.
T-90 SPECIFICATIONS
Combat weight: 46.5 tons
Crew: 3
Engine: 4-stroke, V-12 V-84MS diesel engine, 618 kW (840 hp)
Fuel tanks capacity: 1,600 litres
Road range, paved road: 650 km
Unpaved: 500 km
Ground pressure: 0.87 kg/sq cm
Fording Depth 5 meters (with 20 minutes preparation)
AD machine gun sight: 2E42-4
AD machine gun fire control system: PZU-7
1ETs29 with vertical stabilisation
Communications: UHF R-163-50 radio set,
UHF R-163-UP radio receiver
Fire Control Systems 1A4GT (with commander's override)
Commander's sight PNK-4S sight*
* includes a TKN-4S (Agat-S) day/night sight identification range
- 800 m (day) / 700 m (night).
Gunner's sight 1A43 day sight
1G46 laying device
1V528-1 ballistic computer
DVE-BS wind gauge
TO1-KO1 thermal imaging sight
TPN4-49-23 Buran-PA or Agava-2 sight*
* Buran-PA target identification range - 1.2 km to 1.5 km.
Driver TVN-5 infrared night viewer
Armament Electronic Countermeasures 'Shtora-1'
125 mm 2A46M main gun Infrared jammer, laser warning system with four laser warning receivers, smoke grenade discharging system which produces an aerosol screen and a computerized control system.
7.62 mm PKT coaxial machine gun
12.7 mm NSVT-12.7 AD machine gun AT-11 (9M119) Missile
3UBK14 weapon system with 9M119 missile Range: 100 - 4,000 m
3UBK20 weapon system with 9M119M missile First Round Hit probability: About 80%
Firing range: 100 to 5,000 m Armour penetration: 700 mm
Ammunition ERA penetration: 'ensured'
125mm 43 rounds including 22 on carousel Guidance system: Semi-automatic laser beam
7.62X54mmR 2,000 rounds Time of flight to 4,000 m: 11.7 sec
12.7mm 300 rounds Weight of missile: 23.4 kg
 
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pffft so much whining man!!!! agno let them be - they are jsut making it a friggin - television soap .

friggin it was flower vomit , here i said it !! do what you can do to me. jesus christ guys frggin get a grip all of you.

life is too hectic to cry and whin over such small things - he said it pun intended and even if he didnt - you just Make a mountain out of a molehill .

i am no lawyer to bezerk but as much i know him he is just friggin young dude and he wont be distrssed out of same if said about a pakistani tanks flower garland . or what ever .
if he does he will be a whine baby too.


anyways - lets get back to -t-90
 
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sorry but i read an article where it stated that bhisma does have shotra suite??

No, T-90S (Bhishma) does not have Shtora suite, conspicuous by the absence of those two IR lights on the front sides of the turret! Although, the T-90M in Russian service has it, so does the Ukrainian made T-80UD I presume, which PA now possesses (correct me if I am wrong).
ps: that info bit on T-90S with Shtora-1 is wrong.
 
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No, T-90S (Bhishma) does not have Shtora suite, conspicuous by the absence of those two IR lights on the front sides of the turret! Although, the T-90M in Russian service has it, so does the Ukrainian made T-80UD I presume, which PA now possesses (correct me if I am wrong).
ps: that info bit on T-90S with Shtora-1 is wrong.

ithink there is some confusion regarding this

there are some sites thats quoting that this does have shtora while some are saying that it doesnt.

like have::
T 90S - Main Battle Tank Developed by Nizhnyi Tagil - Army Technology
have not::
T-90 Main Battle Tank

to me its as clear as mud:frown::hitwall:
 
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ithink there is some confusion regarding this

there are some sites thats quoting that this does have shtora while some are saying that it doesnt.

like have::
T 90S - Main Battle Tank Developed by Nizhnyi Tagil - Army Technology
have not::
T-90 Main Battle Tank

to me its as clear as mud:frown::hitwall:

thts what i ve been telling here since tomoro, some qoute its there some qoute its not there, it is really confusing..

@gubbi
yes T-80UD is with PA, but i m not sure if Pak T-80UD has Shotra, Russians made some hell of noise on this sale, nothing is mentioned about Shotra in the link below :undecided:
T-80UD MBT
 
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