Fighter jet makers eye Indian riches after scaled-back French deal - G Lobby Vs LCA

[SpArK]

Which will supplement the heavy class. It's the mid category & light fighters where we need to fill the gaps.

Thats why speeding up of LCAs and talks of cheaper, advanced, light fighters to fill the gap.

And its more mission oriented nowadays and in future rather than Light, Medium, heavy class like in boxing rings...

 

[Bang Galore]

And which part of 'is we have no money then why are we splurging USD 6 BILLION on 30 fighters did you not get? You don't have the money today then you know you don't have money tomorrow so why did you buy fighters you know were always going to be most expnsive?

You will have more money if you don't spend half a Billion USD on building statue, dressing up like peacock etc. ANd no, Antony would have never allowed this kind of a lame duck decision to go ahead. He would never have sold India's interests to please trhe French like Modi has done. Total cancellation is not a ;preferance', it is an inevitability if that's how you are looking at thigs. Even the French will have to build fighters no ask tooth fairy to send them down. The same could have been asked from the Russians if price is the only option. UIS would have delivered them even sooner- the F 18 has been in production for decades and even the AUssies have used them stop gaps now as part of regulaer squadrons. Tha fact is MODI GAVE AWAY $ 6 B to French to please them and you're just BSing to defend him His INCOMPETENCE is just unbelievable. For everything make a big song and dance and then f**k things up. Screwed up budget, now this.

your defence of Antony made it clear how pointless this discussion is.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

No I don't think so @Guynextdoor2 that would be a nightmare scenario for the IAF's logistics, an absolute nightmare!

The DM has already stated there are too many different types of fighters in the IAF and they need to simplify the supply chain, no way are those comments about the Gripen or Russian fighters statements of intent- more like posturing for both the domestic audience (ahem HAL) and the foreign audience (Franch Govt/Dassualt).


Let's see what comes out in the next 2-3 months as the govt-govt talks reach their conclusion, nothing I have seen has made me doubt more Rafales (a lot more) are coming to the IAF and will be built in India. Who build them, the industrial benefits they bring, the cost to build in India and ToT are what is unclear as of now.


You call this the Mk.1+ but this is effectively the Mk.2 which, In my opinion, is going to be accelerated by HAL now under pressure from the MoD.

WHat you're not noticing is that this is our speculation. There is no evidence emerging despite weeks of waiting that there will be more Rafale's. In fact there seems to be a 'case building' happening for not letting that happen. Bangalore's comments are confirming that I'm not the only one feeling this way. Others too are increasingly feeling it this way.

your defence of Antony made it clear how pointless this discussion is.

Hahahahhhahahahhahhaahhahahahah!!!! He defended antony so this is not a lameduck deal. hahahahahhahahaahaha!! Bhakt nowadays are increasingly retarded.

 

[Abingdonboy]

And its more mission oriented nowadays and in future rather than Light, Medium, heavy class like in boxing rings...

And here the DM has stated the Rafale simply outclasses the LCA and, to an extent, the MKI in terms of payload and strike range.

WHat you're not noticing is that this is our speculation. There is no evidence emerging despite weeks of waiting that there will be more Rafale's. In fact there seems to be a 'case building' happening for not letting that happen. Bangalore's comments are confirming that I'm not the only one feeling this way. Others too are increasingly feeling it this way.

Let's wait and see, the govt-govt talks will take another 2-3 months to finalise and I am expecting some big things from them- just how I am reading the situation.

 

[Bang Galore]

Hahahahhhahahahhahhaahhahahahah!!!! He defended antony so this is not a lameduck deal. hahahahahhahahaahaha!! Bhakt nowadays are increasingly retarded.

Seriously?? Did you just call me a Bhakt? Please feel free not to tag me if you feel that way. As I have told you before that if this is the only way you wish to discuss an issue, I'm sure there are others more up your alley. Doesn't interest me.

 

[SpArK]

For starters, SU-30 MKI was a Government to Government deal

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Thats why speeding up of LCAs and talks of cheaper, advanced, light fighters to fill the gap.

And its more mission oriented nowadays and in future rather than Light, Medium, heavy class like in boxing rings...

Naaaa.....you can retrofit your arguments the way you want it but this is a lameduck deal.


Heavy deep penetration strike fighters- MKI
Medium- Rafale
LCA- Ponit Defence.

In all 3 categories higher tech than CHina to counterbalance their increased number with better tech at our end. The bove policy has well served (as shown with MKI) and was logically extended to medium category. Now:

- if a medium jet is considered then why is not it a large deal with full TOT & Manufacturing?
- Rafale and EFT both proved the tech criteria. If you think they're too expensive fine, then why didn't you go back to the other options?
- UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES a small Rafale deal (30 jets) is more expensive than a big deal with no tech gains at all
-UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, adding any jet of any other make will make the total expenditure higher than that of a even a Rafale exclusive deal

We have opted for the highest cost option under all circumstances with cost as a concern? This really is a lame duck deal.

Seriously?? Did you just call me a Bhakt? Please feel free not to tag me if you feel that way. As I have told you before that if this is the only way you wish to discuss an issue, I'm sure there are others more up your alley. Doesn't interest me.

Seriously ...did you just say that splurging USD 6 B on the highet price option is defensile by saying oh previous government did this and that? Antony did not order 30 jets. Modi did. And with modi splurging the cash on his own decisions, this is not reated to any decision taken by anyone before. This is not the first time you showed your ignorance, even in the new neutrality debate you jump in and say 'let them pay'. Obviously the whole world is wrong and you alone were right on that one too.

 

[SpArK]

Naaaa.....you can retrofit your arguments the way you want it but this is a lameduck deal.


Heavy deep penetration strike fighters- MKI
Medium- Rafale
LCA- Ponit Defence.

In all 3 categories higher tech than CHina to counterbalance their increased number with better tech at our end. The bove policy has well served (as shown with MKI) and was logically extended to medium category. Now:

- if a medium jet is considered then why is not it a large deal with full TOT & Manufacturing?
- Rafale and EFT both proved the tech criteria. If you think they're too expensive fine, then why didn't you go back to the other options?
- UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES a small Rafale deal (30 jets) is more expensive than a big deal with no tech gains at all
-UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, adding any jet of any other make will make the total expenditure higher than that of a even a Rafale exclusive deal

We have opted for the highest cost option under all circumstances with cost as a concern? This really is a lame duck deal.

Light is LCA1/2 and probably a new fighter
Medium hence is Rafale 36 (maybe more)+ Mirage+ AMCA...
Heavy is Su-30 MKI and maybe FGFA/PAK FA..

So everything is in order.....

Medium is already getting filled with 5th gen option left as AMCA and Heavy is going good with FGFA left to fill 5th gen gap..

Now whats left is Light..... Lets have some light...more light... lighter light....

 

[Bang Galore]

A few things sir:

1) No one has said the 36 Rafale deal was made simply to keep the French "happy" (in fact there is plenty of business coming their way that would have kept them content )
2)We don't know what the 36 Rafale deal consists of, Modi and the DM have stated the offer the French made was "very attractive" so let's wait until the specifics are known.
3) We can't properly judge this deal nor if there will be any long term benefits including more follow-on units (and made in India) until the conclusion of the govt-govt talks that are going on AS WE SPEAK
4) 30% of the $6 billion is coming back to India in the form of offsets anyway.

The DM has made it clear that he may be looking at some additional Rafales depending on how things work out but the order of 126 is pretty much dead. For now atleast, the DM is cutting things left, right & centre.

It is not only about keeping the French happy but that a deal with them was the quickest possible and wouldn't cause additional problems with people questioning the deal on technical evaluation grounds. The EF was the other choice & that too should have been part of a mix in normal conditions so maybe GoI preferred to go with the French & maybe getting them to reduce their prices . We will never clearly know.

This is not the first time you showed your ignorance, even in the new neutrality debate you jump in and say 'let them pay'. Obviously the whole world is wrong and you alone were right on that one too.

It's called an opinion. No point in getting all anal about it. Again if you don't care for my "ignorance", please feel fry not to bother.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Light is LCA1/2 and probably a new fighter
Medium hence is Rafale 36 (maybe more)+ Mirage+ AMCA...
Heavy is Su-30 MKI and maybe FGFA/PAK FA..

So everything is in order.....

Medium is already getting filled with 5th gen option left as AMCA and Heavy is going good with FGFA left to fill 5th gen gap..

Now whats left is Light..... Lets have some light...more light... lighter light....

Nothing is in order. AMCA is at least 20 years later. It's later versions are supposed to be a REPLACEMENT for rafale. LCA 1/2 is generally exclusive group for light fighter. You have no money for Rafale (he claims), then where is money for 'new fighter'. Need I remind you that Gripen was also there for MRCA? So Grippen is both a MEDIUM and LIGHT fighter? What kind of logic is that?

 

[SpArK]

Nothing is in order. AMCA is at least 20 years later. It's later versions are supposed to be a REPLACEMENT for rafale. LCA 1/2 is generally exclusive group for light fighter. You have no money for Rafale (he claims), then where is money for 'new fighter'. Need I remind you that Gripen was also there for MRCA? So Grippen is both a MEDIUM and LIGHT fighter? What kind of logic is that?

We can wait for AMCA... we cant have a 5th gen Medium until then... So Rafale, Mirages will be good as of now.

What he said is to plug the numbers with Rafale means a lot of money, hence cheaper options for squadrons which requires lesser money or the money we have is sufficient for that.

Light now means single engine.... as put up by DM.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

We can wait for AMCA... we cant have a 5th gen Medium until then... So Rafale, Mirages will be good as of now.

What he said is to plug the numbers with Rafale means a lot of money, hence cheaper options for squadrons which requires lesser money or the money we have is sufficient for that.

Light now means single engine.... as put up by DM.

Thoguh I'm convinced that the evaluation is thorough, I don't even have a POV if they don't pick rafale. My point is, any jet you pick now other than the Rafale (including the Mig 35), will put us above the full cost of the deal Rafale offered.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Abingdonboy

What do you make of this ....

"According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI"

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy

What do you make of this ....

"According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI"

Well considering there is an active production line for the MKI (whilst the Mirage 2000 production line has been closed for over a decade now) and that to in India and they are available in far greater quantities than the Mirage 2000s (170 of 270 MKIs vs only 51 M2ks)one would think it was cheaper to maintain the MKIs thanks to economies of scale.


As the saying goes "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" so figures can be produced to support whatever argument you want to make, the other day I posted a link that stated the Mirage 2000s had achieved the highest availability rates in the entire fleet (and we all know about the MKI's low availability in recent times that is only now being addressed)

 

[Bang Galore]

Well considering there is an active production line for the MKI (whilst the Mirage 2000 production line has been closed for over a decade now) and that to in India and they are available in far greater quantities than the Mirage 2000s (170 of 270 MKIs vs only 51 M2ks)one would think it was cheaper to maintain the MKIs thanks to economies of scale.


As the saying goes "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" so figures can be produced to support whatever argument you want to make, the other day I posted a link that stated the Mirage 2000s had achieved the highest availability rates in the entire fleet (and we all know about the MKI's low availability in recent times that is only now being addressed)

Yeah, I was just trying to figure out where it leaves us with 36 Rafales?