Fifth-gen fighter: India asks Russia to resolve tech-sharing, costing

[sancho]

Russia is likely to remain a world leader in the supply of arms. Buyers will invest money. In the 90's it was India and China, in the future it will be countries of Latin America, Africa and Southeast Asia.

Doubtful at least for the fighter / jet fields, since these have neither the money to money to buy and procure stealth fighters, but also since Russias competition on the low cost / non western fighter has increased with China, Sweden/Brazil or S-Korea who are pushing in the same regions. Malaysia won't buy mor Su 30s and wants to get rid of the Migs with western fighters, Indonesia might opt for lighter Gripens, S. Korea is pushing their T50 light attack fighter in Southeast Asia.

 

[vostok]

We've talking about equipment, not about the numbers.

Look how successful project like Kilo Class submarine on external market for example.
A lot of ships in various countries equipment with Russian made anti-ship missiles\air defence systems\combat information and control systems.

I do not argue with this, the Soviet Union and now Russia is building some of the best ships, but not the best and second only to US submarines. Although - our naval missiles are out of competition, they are the best

 

[Barmaley]

but not the best and second only to US submarines

Wrong again.

First of all, the US doesn't have diesel submarines. The main competition in nuclear powered SLBMs and attack submarines. With Borei and Yasen class we getting ahead in the term of technology of missiles weapons and automation of the submarine. And i don't see any similar american projects...

 

[vostok]

Doubtful at least for the fighter / jet fields, since these have neither the money to money to buy and procure stealth fighters, but also since Russias competition on the low cost / non western fighter has increased with China, Sweden/Brazil or S-Korea who are pushing in the same regions. Malaysia won't buy mor Su 30s and wants to get rid of the Migs with western fighters, Indonesia might opt for lighter Gripens, S. Korea is pushing their T50 light attack fighter in Southeast Asia.

With the current budget Russia already can develop the aircraft alone. Of course, it is desirable that it will paid off after sales, but not necessarily.
Gripen always been rival to Russian jets, China still does not offer jets for sale (except Pakistan). Regarding the development of the 5th generation of Korea, Indonesia, Turkey and so on - it will be either a modified American planes or no 5th generation planes.

 

[vostok]

Wrong again.

First of all, the US doesn't have diesel submarines. The main competition in nuclear powered SLBMs and attack submarines. With Borei and Yasen class we getting ahead in the term of technology of missiles weapons and automation of the submarine. And i don't see any similar american projects...

Yes, but we are lagging behind in terms of development of AIP's. Yasen-M and Borey-M really may be will be the best subs, I agree in this, but Americans are far ahead of us in the number of nuclear submarines.

 

[ptltejas]

 

[metronome]

5 billion to get in on the Russian 5th gen program is a great deal, why are people complaining ?

pretty sure the people in charge have reasonable expectations and know we are the lesser "partner" here, we can't contribute much to 5th gen fighter development, it's not the same thing as customization.

India, however is still a major customer and that's a good card, South America and African countries won't be beating our purchasing power for a while and they're likely to run into major hurdles with the US in doing so anyway, these are not family saloons, this kind of tech is only made available to a select few. The Russians will not want to let us slip to the US/west with major air defence deals like 5th gen.

overall, we're still in a better position than either China or little Pakistan.

 

[SQ8]

That's the way to go. Junk this 'indigenous bull shit'. I saw the first image on LCA in a competition in IIT bombay. And that was in 1994. Same white green photo. Still have it.

Sign up with Japan for a joint study on how to develop and partner on the AMCA. No need for 50% work and crap. Sign up for 25% joint work, learn and then progress later in a phased manner over the next 10 years.

The problem, with Indians, is always thinking swimming in the pool and the ocean are the same.

That is not the issue. The issue is everybody thinks they know best. .. and it is NOT an Indian problem.. its a Desi problem.

 

[surya kiran]

You are confusing things here, FGFA is for 50% ownership, not 50% workshare, our workshare will only be around the 25% you want but over some years and definitely not from the start, simply because we can't contribute more today. That doesn't change if we choose a different partner! If we join Japan, they still will do the design and most of the radar or engine developments and since it is known that Japanese defence products are expensive, we might find ourselfs at higher costs than with FGFA.

Thanks for clearing up the ownership and workshare difference.

Agreed, it will be more expensive. But, its better than putting all our eggs in one basket. Today, if the FGFA deals goes sour due to some unforeseen reason we are stuck. Also, the FGFA is our future heavy weight fighter. What about the low end? DRDO says 2018, which means they are going to get it done before the FGFA. I mean, who are they trying to fool? In this scenario, why not talk with SAAB or Japan. That's my point.

 

[Derolo]

Production start in 2019 is the official plan.

I really do love the timeline of official plans regarding the LCA project.

They are always met on time rather before time. Im sure you would agree with me

 

[Derolo]

The problem with the cost is that the Russians expected India to provide meaningful contribution in tech and research. However once the reality set in the substituted the lack of that with a higher monetary expectation

 

[C130]

so india want 5th generation technology. in just $5 billion. wow. .... russia isn't that much idiot ..

I thought this was suppose to be a joint venture??
China didn't want to team up with the Russians so they went to next best thing India.
sharing tech and knowhow is the only fair thing.
Russia losing to China anyways in terms of R&D and exports in the future

they are just buying their engines and SU-35 as a good well gesture for strategic purposes.



and if oil stays below $90 for a long time Russia is going to have less money to work with. they might even have to scale back on a few big budget military projects like the PAK-FA

 

[sancho]

What about the low end?

The lower end will be dealt with LCA and M-MRCA, which are not only far more cost effective to operate than the Russian origin heavy weight fighters we will have, but also gives us the diversity of weapons, techs and systems. The fact that we will have M-MRCA is the key advantage, because it's not only a non Russian alternative, but also a capability increase to cover a far larger area of roles than we could had done with 400 x Indian LCAs replacing Mig 21s, simply because it is by far not capable enough to take over MKI roles in air superiority, heavy or deep strikes. So an IAF fleet with LCA, M-MRCA, MKI and FGFA + drones will offer the large spectrum of options for IAF to carry out missions and roles, with a variety of different weapons or systems.
There is a confusion that only because the US goes for thousands of stealth fighters, India has to do it too, but that's not the case. We have all the weight classes, missions and roles well covered for the next 3 decades an even our opponents will largly depend on non stealth fighters (F16, JF17, J10, J11, J16, Su 30MKK maybe even Su 35). The money we want to waste on an IAF AMCA, would be far better spend on additional AWACS and tanker aircrafts.

 

[sancho]

I really do love the timeline of official plans regarding the LCA project.

They are always met on time rather before time. Im sure you would agree with me

Well, that's why I'm happy that we have the M-MRCA as the save option, since I don't believe ADA / DRDO promises either.

 

[Derolo]

Well, that's why I'm happy that we have the M-MRCA as the save option, since I don't believe ADA / DRDO promises either.

Still that may not be enough. Seeing as Pakfa might take longer than expected. Lets just hope the russians can speed things up.