Federal cabinet shoots down ‘Sin Tax’ proposal

[CriticalThought]

Try going to any concert- all around Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi hang outs or posh restaurants... most senior bureaucrats, generals and other elite, upper to lower middle class and moonshine for the poor.

The difference isn’t in drinking or not drinking- the difference is that previously Pakistanis would go outside for drinks and pray at home, now they go outside to pray and drink at home.


Try finding one.. ive seen blackened forehead dots from praying, eyes down walkers caught on a bra camera of a prostitute in a local agency operation.

Allah revealed His religion to be actually followed. No dispute.

He Has not Ordained anything which w cannot achieve. No dispute.

Not everyone is a hypocrite, there are certainly good people in existence who follow Allah's Religion properly. No dispute.

If we can't find a pious, God fearing person, the shame is only upon us. It means there is no pious person in our own circle of friends and acquaintances. That says a lot about us.

 

[SQ8]

Allah revealed His religion to be actually followed. No dispute.

He Has not Ordained anything which w cannot achieve. No dispute.

Not everyone is a hypocrite, there are certainly good people in existence who follow Allah's Religion properly. No dispute.

If we can't find a pious, God fearing person, the shame is only upon us. It means there is no pious person in our own circle of friends and acquaintances. That says a lot about us.

Mohammad Ali Jinnah Drank, shrewdly manipulated both people and statements depending upon context(as any lawyer does) to get us Pakistan.
How do we define piety then?

I don’t believe in outward piety or brandishing religion like a badge and will always be suspicious of anyone who does so. Prefer a womanizing leader who is a brilliant diplomat and strategist loyal to the country rather than some outwardly religious person who knows nothing outside of religion and tends to live in fantasia for his decisions rather than reality. Case in point is when your hear supposed scientists talk about solving energy problems with Jinn.

Brilliant but lazy is a hundred fold better compared to stupid and diligent.

But how much that elite make up the population of the country and how much of the population goes for concerts?

To a fraction of society I agree that 50% are involved in such activities but projecting that to whole Pakistan is incorrect ...


again you are talking about a small section of the population ...


These are the exceptions you are talking about ... Criminals can be in any walk of faction of the society but you can't judge the whole faction on acts of few .. Can you ?

Yes you can. What is a fraction but a sample set.

Why do you think Alcohol was outlawed in Islam in the first place?
It was never all the drinkers, it was the sample set. The sample set reflected that everyone consuming alcohol still has the potential to lose control and carry out heinous acts.

Hence while everyone at Raiwind isnt a bigot ; the potential for a large percentage them to turn into one exists.
Similarly everyone in the Urban elite aren't all drunkards or dishonest people hoarding wealth and power- the potential for them to be that way exists.

Unless you can change this exceptional sample set - you can never control the problem.

During the Zia years of supposed piety, or even in neighboring Iran.. all the drama around religion only masked rampant corruption and substance abuse that went under the carpet.

 

[The Accountant]

Mohammad Ali Jinnah Drank, shrewdly manipulated both people and statements depending upon context(as any lawyer does) to get us Pakistan.
How do we define piety then?

I don’t believe in outward piety or brandishing religion like a badge and will always be suspicious of anyone who does so. Prefer a womanizing leader who is a brilliant diplomat and strategist loyal to the country rather than some outwardly religious person who knows nothing outside of religion and tends to live in fantasia for his decisions rather than reality. Case in point is when your hear supposed scientists talk about solving energy problems with Jinn.

Brilliant but lazy is a hundred fold better compared to stupid and diligent.


Yes you can. What is a fraction but a sample set.

Why do you think Alcohol was outlawed in Islam in the first place?
It was never all the drinkers, it was the sample set. The sample set reflected that everyone consuming alcohol still has the potential to lose control and carry out heinous acts.

Hence while everyone at Raiwind isnt a bigot ; the potential for a large percentage them to turn into one exists.
Similarly everyone in the Urban elite aren't all drunkards or dishonest people hoarding wealth and power- the potential for them to be that way exists.

Unless you can change this exceptional sample set - you can never control the problem.

During the Zia years of supposed piety, or even in neighboring Iran.. all the drama around religion only masked rampant corruption and substance abuse that went under the carpet.

Ok then based on sampling your conclusion will be different .. For example the blood tests of presence of alcohol in rewind will definitely show that consumption of alcohol is negligible in Pakistan ...

 

[SQ8]

Ok then based on sampling your conclusion will be different .. For example the blood tests of presence of alcohol in rewind will definitely show that consumption of alcohol is negligible in Pakistan ...

Sure, one can always manipulate sample sets - but then in statistics that is known as a poor sample set.

I wouldn’t sample alcohol consumption for Pakistan just out of Raiwind but I would sample for religious extremism or bigoted views. The same way I wouldn’t sample just the elite for Alcohol consumption or sample those in showbusiness for religious extremism as representatives of all Pakistan.

If one isn’t smart enough to know whether to sample the lung for cancer when it could be in the prostrate then one should not be in that position to diagnose it.

Each metric has to have a sample set, that sample set can determine what to look at...something called Pareto logic in troubleshooting. You don’t try to fix all of the faults, you try to fix those causing 80% of the problem.

 

[Pandora]

Never realised that these Tobacco Tycoons were so powerful. I mean how hard can it be to Impose a Bloody tax on cigarettes. Every developed country has taxed tobacco products heavily so i wonder why the arse clowns in Pakistani cabinet are against it. I really hope Imran Khan puts his foot down on this issue. The cheap cigarettes are promoting underage smoking in Pakistan. Imagine my shock when my younger brother tells me that he has been smoking ever since he was in 7th grade. It has become a plague in schools. Last time i was in Pakistan a couple in our neighbourhood lost their only son to this menace. He was just fourteen and his lungs collapsed due to excessive smoking.

 

[The Accountant]

Sure, one can always manipulate sample sets - but then in statistics that is known as a poor sample set.

I wouldn’t sample alcohol consumption for Pakistan just out of Raiwind but I would sample for religious extremism or bigoted views. The same way I wouldn’t sample just the elite for Alcohol consumption or sample those in showbusiness for religious extremism as representatives of all Pakistan.

If one isn’t smart enough to know whether to sample the lung for cancer when it could be in the prostrate then one should not be in that position to diagnose it.

Each metric has to have a sample set, that sample set can determine what to look at...something called Pareto logic in troubleshooting. You don’t try to fix all of the faults, you try to fix those causing 80% of the problem.

Ok so now you got it right that a sample has to be representative of population then we can go back to my original claim that in no case a good sample can deliver the result that 50% of Pakistanies are alcohalic as claimed by fellow here ...

Anyways this is a useless discussion so even in the case you dont agree lets agree to disagree

 

[SQ8]

Ok so now you got it right that a sample has to be representative of population then we can go back to my original claim that in no case a good sample can deliver the result that 50% of Pakistanies are alcohalic as claimed by fellow here ...

Anyways this is a useless discussion so even in the case you dont agree lets agree to disagree

I don’t agree with the 50% number but the consumption is “significant” in terms of its spread among the socioeconomic strata.

If I was to argue specific to the topic - alcohol is an irrelevant metric to this tax. Sugar and phosphoric acid heavy sodas and tobacco are by far the larger danger to Pakistani health.

 

[The Accountant]

agreed

I don’t agree with the 50% number but the consumption is “significant” in terms of its spread among the socioeconomic strata.

If I was to argue specific to the topic - alcohol is an irrelevant metric to this tax. Sugar and phosphoric acid heavy sodas and tobacco are by far the larger danger to Pakistani health.

 

[CriticalThought]

Mohammad Ali Jinnah Drank, shrewdly manipulated both people and statements depending upon context(as any lawyer does) to get us Pakistan.
How do we define piety then?

I don’t believe in outward piety or brandishing religion like a badge and will always be suspicious of anyone who does so. Prefer a womanizing leader who is a brilliant diplomat and strategist loyal to the country rather than some outwardly religious person who knows nothing outside of religion and tends to live in fantasia for his decisions rather than reality. Case in point is when your hear supposed scientists talk about solving energy problems with Jinn.

Brilliant but lazy is a hundred fold better compared to stupid and diligent.


Yes you can. What is a fraction but a sample set.

Why do you think Alcohol was outlawed in Islam in the first place?
It was never all the drinkers, it was the sample set. The sample set reflected that everyone consuming alcohol still has the potential to lose control and carry out heinous acts.

Hence while everyone at Raiwind isnt a bigot ; the potential for a large percentage them to turn into one exists.
Similarly everyone in the Urban elite aren't all drunkards or dishonest people hoarding wealth and power- the potential for them to be that way exists.

Unless you can change this exceptional sample set - you can never control the problem.

During the Zia years of supposed piety, or even in neighboring Iran.. all the drama around religion only masked rampant corruption and substance abuse that went under the carpet.

Let us review how the world runs. For non-Muslims it is a world of cause and effect. Intelligent decisions by a womanizing leader will still bear results for them. But for Muslims, you could put the most intelligent people in charge, if you go against the Commands of Allah the Almighty as a nation, you will suffer His Admonishment. This is the System Created by Allah Almighty and no one can change it.

Amongst many other guarantees, Islam gives a guarantee of Wisdom Granted by Allah the Almighty to a True Momin. This is exemplified by the likes of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam himself, and the likes of Hazrat Abu Bakr, Omar, Osman, and Ali May Allah Be Pleased With Them All. These are our role models and it is their lives that guide us.

In general, a True Momin is a very cluey person. He understands very well how the world works and what needs to be done to accomplish goals. So when we see religious leaders who, as you aptly put it, live in a fantasy land, we know there is a problem. There is no question that Islam and Muslims are meant to lead, but if you find no leaders amongst Muslims, the problem is with Muslims and not Islam. Your approach is to write off Muslims completely, whereas I believe 'Zara Nam Ho Tu Buhat Zarkhaiz Hai Yeh Matti Saaqi'. In order to fill this leadership gap, we need to change ourselves as individuals on a national level. On the one hand, the election of irreligious leaders is a charge sheet against us, on the other hand it is still our responsibility to raise awareness amongst fellow Pakistanis to not follow irreligious leaders blindly because this is a path that only ends in doom. You cannot change the System created by Allah Almighty, and you cannot prosper by defying His Commands and the instructions of His Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam.

 

[SQ8]

Let us review how the world runs. For non-Muslims it is a world of cause and effect. Intelligent decisions by a womanizing leader will still bear results for them. But for Muslims, you could put the most intelligent people in charge, if you go against the Commands of Allah the Almighty as a nation, you will suffer His Admonishment. This is the System Created by Allah Almighty and no one can change it.

Amongst many other guarantees, Islam gives a guarantee of Wisdom Granted by Allah the Almighty to a True Momin. This is exemplified by the likes of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam himself, and the likes of Hazrat Abu Bakr, Omar, Osman, and Ali May Allah Be Pleased With Them All. These are our role models and it is their lives that guide us.

In general, a True Momin is a very cluey person. He understands very well how the world works and what needs to be done to accomplish goals. So when we see religious leaders who, as you aptly put it, live in a fantasy land, we know there is a problem. There is no question that Islam and Muslims are meant to lead, but if you find no leaders amongst Muslims, the problem is with Muslims and not Islam. Your approach is to write off Muslims completely, whereas I believe 'Zara Nam Ho Tu Buhat Zarkhaiz Hai Yeh Matti Saaqi'. In order to fill this leadership gap, we need to change ourselves as individuals on a national level. On the one hand, the election of irreligious leaders is a charge sheet against us, on the other hand it is still our responsibility to raise awareness amongst fellow Pakistanis to not follow irreligious leaders blindly because this is a path that only ends in doom. You cannot change the System created by Allah Almighty, and you cannot prosper by defying His Commands and the instructions of His Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam.

You misunderstood where I write of muslims - I write off outward displays of piety and wearing the religion on a sleeve. That has NOTHING to do with how you choose to look and behave in your private life but rather if you wear your religion like a medal and tend to “vomit” it out at everyone with judgement and be a general nuisance.
I know of people who outwardly look the usual(wrong) definition of westernized yet have never touched alcohol and offer tahajud quietly - not in the middle of an airplane at 30000 feet trying to do a jamaat and making everyone miserable.

At the same time I know of people in the US who dress and look like someone found as a Imam at a mosque - not an unclean uncouth type but someone we normally associate with being religious due to our lenses.
However, this person drives a fancy car- has snooker and table tennis in his house along with a theatre. Comfortable and reconciled in his belief without forcing it upon others.

The same way, Mohammad Ali Jinnah was the man selected to deliver us Pakistan and not Maulana Azad; because it was his internal compass and intellect that was required for the task.

The folly per se is to look for specific markers in people based on what we have been taught as “religious” versus looking for their qualities as a human being. I value a good human as a good muslim versus the other way around and believe that is what the Quran and Sunnah prioritize as well.

Finally, a few years ago there was a bomb blast near clifton Karachi during Jumaa time and it was a hundred feet or so away from the mosque so besides a big boom no damage as such..many people continued their sujood(while trying to assess the situation in their head) but the Imam never gave the next takbeer... turned out he was already gone and running.

In a nutshell- this is what I am against and ask to avoid. Because all those fools behind him thinking they are on the boarding line to Jannat.

 

[CriticalThought]

You misunderstood where I write of muslims - I write off outward displays of piety and wearing the religion on a sleeve. That has NOTHING to do with how you choose to look and behave in your private life but rather if you wear your religion like a medal and tend to “vomit” it out at everyone with judgement and be a general nuisance.
I know of people who outwardly look the usual(wrong) definition of westernized yet have never touched alcohol and offer tahajud quietly - not in the middle of an airplane at 30000 feet trying to do a jamaat and making everyone miserable.

At the same time I know of people in the US who dress and look like someone found as a Imam at a mosque - not an unclean uncouth type but someone we normally associate with being religious due to our lenses.
However, this person drives a fancy car- has snooker and table tennis in his house along with a theatre. Comfortable and reconciled in his belief without forcing it upon others.

The same way, Mohammad Ali Jinnah was the man selected to deliver us Pakistan and not Maulana Azad; because it was his internal compass and intellect that was required for the task.

The folly per se is to look for specific markers in people based on what we have been taught as “religious” versus looking for their qualities as a human being. I value a good human as a good muslim versus the other way around and believe that is what the Quran and Sunnah prioritize as well.

Finally, a few years ago there was a bomb blast near clifton Karachi during Jumaa time and it was a hundred feet or so away from the mosque so besides a big boom no damage as such..many people continued their sujood(while trying to assess the situation in their head) but the Imam never gave the next takbeer... turned out he was already gone and running.

In a nutshell- this is what I am against and ask to avoid. Because all those fools behind him thinking they are on the boarding line to Jannat.

Our religion gives us an identity. So much so, that is someone dies in an accident in a foreign land in an accident and the dead body is discovered without any identification, it should be possible to identify the Muslim. In jurisprudence, the issue is taken up of what to do if a dead body is found that has no identification telling the person is a Muslim.

Amongst the obligations upon Muslim, a handful length if beard is a fardh (obligation). That already sets us apart. The Holy Quran the followera of Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam as "You will see them in Rukoo' (bowing) and Sujood (prostrating)". This will invariably lead to a mark on the forehead. The Holy Quran says "Say if you love Allah, follow me, Allah will Love you...". It is incomprehensible for a True Momin to not follow the Sunnah attire after this Aayah. We know very well who are closer to Allah's Love by seeing their appearance. Of course many other attributes are also required, but appearance is also required.

Amongst other schools of jurisprudence, you are allowed to read the Holy Quran while praying, or quickly pick a call and utter Salah etc. People who have been to Saudia Arabia have described this behavior. There is no need to ridicule it. That said, I haven't watched the video yet.

EDIT: After watching the video, looks like a case of different jurisprudence.

 

[SQ8]

Our religion gives us an identity. So much so, that is someone dies in an accident in a foreign land in an accident and the dead body is discovered without any identification, it should be possible to identify the Muslim. In jurisprudence, the issue is taken up of what to do if a dead body is found that has no identification telling the person is a Muslim.

Amongst the obligations upon Muslim, a handful length if beard is a fardh (obligation). That already sets us apart. The Holy Quran the followera of Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam as "You will see them in Rukoo' (bowing) and Sujood (prostrating)". This will invariably lead to a mark on the forehead. The Holy Quran says "Say if you love Allah, follow me, Allah will Love you...". It is incomprehensible for a True Momin to not follow the Sunnah attire after this Aayah. We know very well who are closer to Allah's Love by seeing their appearance. Of course many other attributes are also required, but appearance is also required.

Amongst other schools of jurisprudence, you are allowed to read the Holy Quran while praying, or quickly pick a call and utter Salah etc. People who have been to Saudia Arabia have described this behavior. There is no need to ridicule it. That said, I haven't watched the video yet.

EDIT: After watching the video, looks like a case of different jurisprudence.

And this is where you and I will continually disagree.. I see no proof in anything you have presented of the beard as obligatory or the mark and so on.
My religion in in my heart, not for pictures or outward show.. that reminds me of a ridiculous logic in backward areas of giving testimonials in writing to graves saying this person was a good muslim.. nor do I let my cellphone be a priority in Namaz.

Either way, I leave it to the ultimate authority to judge who is right. My judgement is on hypocrisy more than anything else and the examples Ive seen. You value glitter, I value substance.

Wallaho alam.

 

[CriticalThought]

And this is where you and I will continually disagree.. I see no proof in anything you have presented of the beard as obligatory or the mark and so on.
My religion in in my heart, not for pictures or outward show.. that reminds me of a ridiculous logic in backward areas of giving testimonials in writing to graves saying this person was a good muslim.. nor do I let my cellphone be a priority in Namaz.

Either way, I leave it to the ultimate authority to judge who is right. My judgement is on hypocrisy more than anything else and the examples Ive seen. You value glitter, I value substance.

Wallaho alam.

I value the Commands of Allah, the teachings of Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, as narrated through the chain of Followers May Allah Be Pleased with them, the Tabi'yin, Taba' Tabi'yin, and the pious narrators, interpretors, elucidators, the Ulema, and Shuyookh who have carried the tradition. And I value this because I realize that all other paths lead to deviance from the right path. And for the rationally inclined, this is also what logic says as well.