FC-20 needs a partner!

[Rank]

On Pakistani part I want to beg to differ a bit with this...
F16 (Quality) as these will be upgraded.
Mirage series and F7 (Just ok)
JF17 and J10 (Quantity/Quality ) Based on what u said about Mirages and F-7.
KJ200 (No Comments)
F16 Block 50/52 (Quality)
SAAB AWACS (Quality/Quantity)
Chinees AWACS (No Comments)
IL 78 (Quality)
Transport C130 (Quality but outdated now)


NAVY

Frigates (Old)
F22 (No Comments)
German U214 (Quality/Quantity)
Agosta-90B (Quality)


Then there is a big "IF" in your post regarding Rafale which is sadly very true. Let's wait and see what comes out of MMRCA? But even after that i don't see Rafale in PAF colors anytime soon. (b4 2019)

Agreed but my point is QUALITY PRODUCT whatever its RAFALE etc

 

[Sapper]

Like i have factually mentioned earlier. China would never export top of the line top secret domestic product with other countries be it Pakistan. J-XX induction in PAF any time sooner then 2025 is a long fetch hope for us. Either they will offer us a dedicated export model quite different from domestic or make us wait 7-10 years when China finally decides that it is no longer a secret and are willing to share the technology with a friendly close ally.
Another option for pakistan could be.
- South Korea
- Some where from Europe
- Or by some miracle PAK-US relations of early 1980s repeats and US agrees for F-35 and of course we approach Turkey for production.

Their should be multipul options going on in PAF's head.

Dear ...

1. F16 upgrades will likely mature around 2015.
2. FC-20 induction will START in 2014/15 and will take almost 3~4 years to complete, which will be around 2018~2020.
3. Completion of induction of Last block of JF-17 will occur around 2020.

Only after that will PAF have any spare money to indulge in a 5th Gen product whether it is from Uncle SAM, China, or Europe. India's induction of PAKFA will also start to materialize around this time and not before. So it will be better if we don't commit ourselves to induct Rafale from 2020~2025, which will be of limited use against Indian 5th Gen Pakfa as compared to our own 5th Gen platform.

We must not over-commit ourselves here, because the thing that bottle-necks our fighter acquisition is money. If we commit that money for Rafale now, we will not be able to induct 5th gen tech till 2030 or later, but if we skip the Rafale, we might have enough money to jump directly to a 5th Gen platform (wherever from).

We must however keep upgrading the engines, radars , weapons of F16, FC-20, JF-17 on dacade by dacade basis at a cost of 5~7 million per plane, to keep our inventory at par with latest IAF upgrades.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Dear ...

1. F16 upgrades will likely mature around 2015.

The 36 F-16 upgrade is going to start from 2010 In TAI and roll out 1 MLU per month! 5-6 years from now is a very very over estimated time frame you have given. Even if PAF exercise the option of 18 more in total 36 new block f-16 it will still reach Pakistan earlier then 2015.

2. FC-20 induction will START in 2014/15 and will take almost 3~4 years to complete, which will be around 2018~2020.

And that realy realy sucks for PAF which I am trying tell! And thats why i am not really in favor of this FC-20 deal, too much time to wait and certainly not the best system available in the market and by the time it enters in service IAF MKI fleet will be upgraded unmatched by the FC-20!
No one is suggesting to invest 10 billion dollars on another western MRCA along with FC-20. We need to stick to original plan of just 36 FC-20 and 36 another much more advance platform which should work in conjunction with PAF front line fighters.
No use of investing in technology that by the time it is inducted is not even technically par with your main rival.
Unless we can get hold of Chinese domestic 5th gen product on time along with PLAAF then i think it is worth it other wise if they make us wait like in the case of FC-20 then all i have say that bye bye PAF. Seriously we need to have multipule options in our heads and the needle should not always stop at China for every solution! Pakistan should learn its lessons from the past that it can not put all its eggs in just one basket.

 

[Sapper]

The 36 F-16 upgrade is going to start from 2010 In TAI and roll out 1 MLU per month! 5-6 years from now is a very very over estimated time frame you have given. Even if PAF exercise the option of 18 more in total 36 new block f-16 it will still reach Pakistan earlier then 2015.
And that realy realy sucks for PAF which I am trying tell! And thats why i am not really in favor of this FC-20 deal, too much time to wait and certainly not the best system available in the market and by the time it enters in service IAF MKI fleet will be upgraded unmatched by the FC-20!
No one is suggesting to invest 10 billion dollars on another western MRCA along with FC-20. We need to stick to original plan of just 36 FC-20 and 36 another much more advance platform which should work in conjunction with PAF front line fighters.
No use of investing in technology that by the time it is inducted is not even technically par with your main rival.
Unless we can get hold of Chinese domestic 5th gen product on time along with PLAAF then i think it is worth it other wise if they make us wait like in the case of FC-20 then all i have say that bye bye PAF. Seriously we need to have multipule options in our heads and the needle should not always stop at China for every solution! Pakistan should learn its lessons from the past that it can not put all its eggs in just one basket.

Even if Pakistan orgered Rafale TODAY, it will take atleast 5~8 years before even a single plane makes its way to Pakistan ... do remember that France's own order for Rafale is not even close to completion, meanwhile Rafale is still undergoing Radar and weapon systems integration. Rafale has only completed A2A integration, while to make it Multi-Role, it will still require 2~3 years, after which its FULL-SCALE production for domestic use will be churning out planes at full pace. France will complete its order around 2015 and begin export after that, this will make the completion of Pakistan's order around 2018~2020, even if ordered today.

We should also look beyond Rafale/4.5 Gen from now on. We are already inducting 4Gen and comparable to 4.5Gen aircraft, if we invest in Rafale, there is no room for a 5th Gen plane in our budget till 2025 onward. We should not waste this oppertunity, and rather than investing in Rafale, invest in Chinese 5th Gen (safer bet than Europeans and American), so that when China starts production, Pakistan will be a 5%~10% partner (like TuAF in F35).

Compared to a 5th Gen twin engine aircraft, Rafale investment will look like complete wastage of resources.

Do remember that for NOW, we are still a very key Ally to China, and we should build upon this relationship sooner before this scenario changes.

 

[aimarraul]

come on ,pakistan participated in JF-17 program since the very first beginning ,i think it's very possible that the pakistan scientists already started the design of the 4.5 generation aircraft

 

[SBD-3]

come on ,pakistan participated in JF-17 program since the very first beginning ,i think it's very possible that the pakistan scientists already started the design of the 4.5 generation aircraft

ya I heard about it as well that PAF and PLAAF are working on a J-10 J-11 Hybrid

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

come on ,pakistan participated in JF-17 program since the very first beginning ,i think it's very possible that the pakistan scientists already started the design of the 4.5 generation aircraft

ya if PAC comes with a new inproved block of jf-17 in a few years,with increased hard points and advance radar.then its not necessary to buy any 4+ aircraft.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Even if Pakistan orgered Rafale TODAY, it will take atleast 5~8 years before even a single plane makes its way to Pakistan ... do remember that France's own order for Rafale is not even close to completion, meanwhile Rafale is still undergoing Radar and weapon systems integration. Rafale has only completed A2A integration, while to make it Multi-Role, it will still require 2~3 years, after which its FULL-SCALE production for domestic use will be churning out planes at full pace. France will complete its order around 2015 and begin export after that, this will make the completion of Pakistan's order around 2018~2020, even if ordered today.

You apparently have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about and just degrading the topic for the sake of winning the argument.
I cant believe how one could say Rafale has only qualified for A2A weapons so far and is not fit for A2G role and either the person is not aware of operational capabilities or just stating facts based on old news. Mind you, France and US have never full filled their desire number of orders first and then opened export production line. In fact if we look at the past with F-16 and Mirage-2000, PAF inducted F-16s 3 years after the plane had IOC in USAF while India inducted MK2 in about same amount of period as it took PAF with F-16s. And i am talking about two of the best MRCA of that time so assuming that if PAF today or when ever orders Rafale will take no less then 8 years is just baseless argument. I dough France can afford to wait any longer without any export orders for Rafale, they are very desperate.

We should also look beyond Rafale/4.5 Gen from now on. We are already inducting 4Gen and comparable to 4.5Gen aircraft, if we invest in Rafale, there is no room for a 5th Gen plane in our budget till 2025 onward. We should not waste this oppertunity, and rather than investing in Rafale, invest in Chinese 5th Gen (safer bet than Europeans and American), so that when China starts production, Pakistan will be a 5%~10% partner (like TuAF in F35).

Other then the 5th generation stealth technology i dough the export version of chinese stealth plane for Pakistan (2020) will have superior systems or to say a significant advantage over Rafale.
"A 4.5 generation aircraft with 5th generation systems".

Compared to a 5th Gen twin engine aircraft, Rafale investment will look like complete wastage of resources.

and your opinion is based onnn????

 

[Sapper]

You apparently have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about and just degrading the topic for the sake of winning the argument.
I cant believe how one could say Rafale has only qualified for A2A weapons so far and is not fit for A2G role and either the person is not aware of operational capabilities or just stating facts based on old news. Mind you, France and US have never full filled their desire number of orders first and then opened export production line. In fact if we look at the past with F-16 and Mirage-2000, PAF inducted F-16s 3 years after the plane had IOC in USAF while India inducted MK2 in about same amount of period as it took PAF with F-16s. And i am talking about two of the best MRCA of that time so assuming that if PAF today or when ever orders Rafale will take no less then 8 years is just baseless argument. I dough France can afford to wait any longer without any export orders for Rafale, they are very desperate.

Other then the 5th generation stealth technology i dough the export version of chinese stealth plane for Pakistan (2020) will have superior systems or to say a significant advantage over Rafale.
"A 4.5 generation aircraft with 5th generation systems".


and your opinion is based onnn????

brother ... in simplest words .. what i am about to say is very easy to comprehend. we have two options

Go for Rafale or another 4.5 gen platform .... Go for Jxx or another 5th Gen platform

we only have money for 1 ... so pick one (dont "if" and "but" around) ... choice is all yours.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

brother ... in simplest words .. what i am about to say is very easy to comprehend. we have two options

Go for Rafale or another 4.5 gen platform .... Go for Jxx or another 5th Gen platform

we only have money for 1 ... so pick one (dont "if" and "but" around) ... choice is all yours.

Brother, PAF has operated as many as 6-7 different combat air craft at once. So it should not be taken by surprise that PAF will do that again but certainly not reach the number of 7.
Rafale will only benefit PAF and Pakistan in short and long term, it will ease the work load for FC-20 and give us access to French next generation stealth fighter project with Brazil also meant to be exported. J-XX is a long fetch idea for PAF China will simply not offer it to us and pakistan has to find another way. In case of Russia India, its india who is funding the project as Russia cant really afford this on it own.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Brother, PAF has operated as many as 6-7 different combat air craft at once. So it should not be taken by surprise that PAF will do that again but certainly not reach the number of 7.
Rafale will only benefit PAF and Pakistan in short and long term, it will ease the work load for FC-20 and give us access to French next generation stealth fighter project with Brazil also meant to be exported. J-XX is a long fetch idea for PAF China will simply not offer it to us and pakistan has to find another way. In case of Russia India, its india who is funding the project as Russia cant really afford this on it own.

This is really interesting if China will not give us access to their 5th gen fighter (which is true) how come French will allow us to join their 5th gen. project?

If France has a plan like of JSF then i think Pakistan and China can also engage to launch a 5th gen. project other than JXX. Like any other nation China will also push for sale like they are doing for J-10 now.

 

[Sapper]

Brother, PAF has operated as many as 6-7 different combat air craft at once. So it should not be taken by surprise that PAF will do that again but certainly not reach the number of 7.
Rafale will only benefit PAF and Pakistan in short and long term, it will ease the work load for FC-20 and give us access to French next generation stealth fighter project with Brazil also meant to be exported. J-XX is a long fetch idea for PAF China will simply not offer it to us and pakistan has to find another way. In case of Russia India, its india who is funding the project as Russia cant really afford this on it own.

Dear the question is very simple ... cannot be put in a more simpler way ... why are you afraid to answer it.

Question: We have only enough money to induct either
1. Rafale/(comparable 4.5 Gen from another country), or
2. JXX/(comparable 5th Gen from another country)

what shall it be.
(IF we have more money to spare before 2020 ... which i am doubtful, then go for it)

 

[SBD-3]

Rafale will only benefit PAF and Pakistan in short and long term

What makes you think that rafale is the best option? Typhoon is a better option is I would have to go twin,Its more matured as compared to Rafale.

it will ease the work load for FC-20

Sir Thunder can do the same and I still dont know the logic that how will it happen? IDAF uses vipers (single engine like FC-20) to complete the time allocation of Eagles (As they require more maintainence as compared to vipers) will you elaborate?

and give us access to French next generation stealth fighter project with Brazil also meant to be exported.

Now i still remember that you scrapped the french on sub issue saying that they will only sell us junk or sell something better to India.Now how on earth will they allow us the access to their 5th gen? just on the order of 20 odd rafales?

J-XX is a long fetch idea for PAF China will simply not offer it to us and pakistan has to find another way.

what makes you say this that they won't?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

This is really interesting if China will not give us access to their 5th gen fighter (which is true) how come French will allow us to join their 5th gen. project?

If France has a plan like of JSF then i think Pakistan and China can also engage to launch a 5th gen. project other than JXX. Like any other nation China will also push for sale like they are doing for J-10 now.

Now you just dont seem to get it?
After the agreement with France that Brazil will purchased 36 Rafales with highest level of secret technologies being shared Brazil has also started negotiating with France for a 5th generation Stealth Fighter for domestic use and export to boost its defence industry. Now this is one worthy of option, we cant just go knock our next door for every other solution no matter if it meets our requirement or not.

Now if Pakistan can come up with 10-15 billion dollars for just R&D, time machine that takes us back 10 years from the time when project starts IMO (2015-18) only then could pakistan expect somthing close to J-XX for its own on time along with IAF PAK-FA.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Dear the question is very simple ... cannot be put in a more simpler way ... why are you afraid to answer it.

Question: We have only enough money to induct either
1. Rafale/(comparable 4.5 Gen from another country), or
2. JXX/(comparable 5th Gen from another country)

what shall it be.
(IF we have more money to spare before 2020 ... which i am doubtful, then go for it)

Look buddy, you are projecting it like its some kind of a bord game with rules.
The best solution for Pakistan air force is to postpone or drop the fallow on order for FC-20 and the money they have allocated for this purpose use that to acquire Rafales. The J-XX option is just not realistic. By the time it enters in service IMO 2020 PAF will not even get near it why because China fears the leak of their secret and like i have said earlier they will not have a export plan for the next 10 years or so. Rafale itself is like a 5th generation fighter without stealth.