FC-20 needs a partner!

[Myth_buster_1]

What makes you think that rafale is the best option? Typhoon is a better option is I would have to go twin,Its more matured as compared to Rafale.

Rafale is a true multirole fighter unlike EF.

Sir Thunder can do the same

Seriously whats wrong with you people!

and I still dont know the logic that how will it happen? IDAF uses vipers (single engine like FC-20) to complete the time allocation of Eagles (As they require more maintainence as compared to vipers) will you elaborate?

Thats your analogy not mine.

Now i still remember that you scrapped the french on sub issue saying that they will only sell us junk or sell something better to India.Now how on earth will they allow us the access to their 5th gen? just on the order of 20 odd rafales?

This is merely your projection not my words. the better deal always goes to who ever pays more, Pakistan paid about a billion dollars for Agosta while india is paying about more then 3 billion for scorpenes.

what makes you say this that they won't?

Because its a bitter reality for pakistanis who are quite deluded.

 

[Sapper]

Look buddy, you are projecting it like its some kind of a bord game with rules.
The best solution for Pakistan air force is to postpone or drop the fallow on order for FC-20 and the money they have allocated for this purpose use that to acquire Rafales. The J-XX option is just not realistic. By the time it enters in service IMO 2020 PAF will not even get near it why because China fears the leak of their secret and like i have said earlier they will not have a export plan for the next 10 years or so. Rafale itself is like a 5th generation fighter without stealth.

OMG, now i get your point ... you want to get Rafales instead of FC20s ... sorry for the mis-understanding.

With due apologies dear ... this notion is even worse ... Giving all of our front line defense capabilities in the hands of USA+West ... waiting to be shut off by one crack-head move made by our crack-head president.

Tooo risky.

 

[SBD-3]

 

[Myth_buster_1]

OMG, now i get your point ... you want to get Rafales instead of FC20s ... sorry for the mis-understanding.

With due apologies dear ... this notion is even worse ... Giving all of our front line defense capabilities in the hands of USA+West ... waiting to be shut off by one crack-head move made by our crack-head president.

Tooo risky.

Now where did i say to entirely drop the FC-20 deal? where where? all i said was, postpone or drop the fallow on orders meaning that after the induction of 36 FC-20. Unfortunately china has not offered us the true front line capabilities to pakistan on time par to their domestic induction yet and when they do so Pak should defiantly execute those deals. But for now, when the nation faces so many odds technical and quantity it will be stupid to induct weapons that are not technically let alone quantitatively superior to our enemy.

 

[Sapper]

Now where did i say to entirely drop the FC-20 deal? where where? all i said was, postpone or drop the fallow on orders meaning that after the induction of 36 FC-20. Unfortunately china has not offered us the true front line capabilities to pakistan on time par to their domestic induction yet and when they do so Pak should defiantly execute those deals. But for now, when the nation faces so many odds technical and quantity it will be stupid to induct weapons that are not technically let alone quantitatively superior to our enemy.

roger ... good point ... but let the FC-20 roll out first.

I disagree with your notion that China is delaying the product because they didn't want to sell us J10 ... wrong ... PAF rejected the J10, they wanted FC-20, with AESA/PESA, better engine, IRST and ECM, which were somewhat missing in original J10s.

This is how it must have gone ... (my assumption)
China: Offer J10 to PAF, We can start delivering when you want.
PAF: Nice product, but we want this, this, this, and this for it to be inducted into PAF's top notch fighter. when can you deliver that ?
China: 2013~14 probably.
PAF: hmmmm, OK, but try to make it as capable as you can, so we don't HAVE the need to induct Grippen, Typhoon or Rafale, just because FC-20 let us down (tech wise)
China: Will you give us more orders ?
PAF: If it proves to be same capability as Typhoon and Grippen, sure ... more orders will be placed.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I disagree with your notion that China is delaying the product because they didn't want to sell us J10 ... wrong ... PAF rejected the J10, they wanted FC-20, with AESA/PESA, better engine, IRST and ECM, which were somewhat missing in original J10s.

Remember PAF version of FC-20 is nothing like the export model of J-10B. So china does not has to R&D in radar, avionics, electronic warfare, and possibly most of its armaments. the IRST you are talking about is a variant of currently used by PLAAF flankers fleet. Another thing, it will not be a wise dessision to opt for 1st generation chinese AESA radar because by the time we get it the world even india will have 2nd++ and 3rd generation AESA radars or in proses of having one.

This is how it must have gone ... (my assumption)
China: Offer J10 to PAF, We can start delivering when you want.
PAF: Nice product, but we want this, this, this, and this for it to be inducted into PAF's top notch fighter. when can you deliver that ?
China: 2013~14 probably.
PAF: hmmmm, OK, but try to make it as capable as you can, so we don't HAVE the need to induct Grippen, Typhoon or Rafale, just because FC-20 let us down (tech wise)
China: Will you give us more orders ?
PAF: If it proves to be same capability as Typhoon and Grippen, sure ... more orders will be placed.

Now come on yaar. You are making it sound like as if we simply put a paper in printing machine and we get a desire model at the receiving end. I highly highly dough FC-20 would be anything like European 4.5 generation MRCA, we will be dam fools to believe in this.

This is my version..

Pakistan: financially broke, looking for 4++ MRCA European options too expensive in huge numbers like 50+.
China: After many friendly countries showing interests in J-10 china decides to produce a export variant of J-10 the J-10B and produce a more advance variant for themself the J-10C/super-10.
Pakistan: Good thing China is our ally and they can afford to give us soft loans. However we must have our own version with more capable western systems to make this aircraft more capable.

 

[batmannow]

Remember PAF version of FC-20 is nothing like the export model of J-10B. So china does not has to R&D in radar, avionics, electronic warfare, and possibly most of its armaments. the IRST you are talking about is a variant of currently used by PLAAF flankers fleet. Another thing, it will not be a wise dessision to opt for 1st generation chinese AESA radar because by the time we get it the world even india will have 2nd++ and 3rd generation AESA radars or in proses of having one.

Now come on yaar. You are making it sound like as if we simply put a paper in printing machine and we get a desire model at the receiving end. I highly highly dough FC-20 would be anything like European 4.5 generation MRCA, we will be dam fools to believe in this.

This is my version..

Pakistan: financially broke, looking for 4++ MRCA European options too expensive in huge numbers like 50+.
China: After many friendly countries showing interests in J-10 china decides to produce a export variant of J-10 the J-10B and produce a more advance variant for themself the J-10C/super-10.
Pakistan: Good thing China is our ally and they can afford to give us soft loans. However we must have our own version with more capable western systems to make this aircraft more capable.

D, sir!
i really think that, you did your best, to updated us, RFELE thing, but it wont gona happen even you put , 100 threads more like that, dear!
closest thing couldbe, BLK,52 ... F-16s & thts it!
i think if we make more efforts to get long range SAMS, with TOT is the best thing to put on for the big show!
And that could be a 50 .50 chance but, its the realistic one!
what you say!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

D, sir!
i really think that, you did your best, to updated us, RFELE thing, but it wont gona happen even you put , 100 threads more like that, dear!

And you think J-11B is going to happen and chacha China will give us anything we want regardless of the money? Buddy NO high tech top of the line equipment for pakistan from China, kindly get this on your bulletin board where you see it every day. Maybe in the future things may change. J-11B may find its way in PAF maybe after 2025 .

 

[desiman]

Remember PAF version of FC-20 is nothing like the export model of J-10B. So china does not has to R&D in radar, avionics, electronic warfare, and possibly most of its armaments. the IRST you are talking about is a variant of currently used by PLAAF flankers fleet. Another thing, it will not be a wise dessision to opt for 1st generation chinese AESA radar because by the time we get it the world even india will have 2nd++ and 3rd generation AESA radars or in proses of having one.

Now come on yaar. You are making it sound like as if we simply put a paper in printing machine and we get a desire model at the receiving end. I highly highly dough FC-20 would be anything like European 4.5 generation MRCA, we will be dam fools to believe in this.

This is my version..

Pakistan: financially broke, looking for 4++ MRCA European options too expensive in huge numbers like 50+.
China: After many friendly countries showing interests in J-10 china decides to produce a export variant of J-10 the J-10B and produce a more advance variant for themself the J-10C/super-10.
Pakistan: Good thing China is our ally and they can afford to give us soft loans. However we must have our own version with more capable western systems to make this aircraft more capable.

I think Growler is the only one that makes some sense here and is atleast trying to use some common sense when writting, gud job dude keep it up

 

[Sapper]

OMG SAPPER LOL really really bad comment lol please think before you say something, pakistan can hardly afford the FC-20 let alone the Euro fighter or the rafale lol Just because pakistan wants something and China "says" it can make it does not make the fc-20 on par with the MKI, Rafale or eurofighter. Billions of dollars of reserach goes into these amazing jet and they dont just pop out one day like the j-10. I highly doubt that Chinese tech is anywhere even close to russian tech let alone western tech. The Chinese are known to copy everything they get their hands on. I can bet on anything that the j-10 is a modified version of the MKK that they currently have in service. I am almost 100% sure that the j-10 or 11 are all copied from somewhere just like how the f-7 was a total copy of the mig-21. I think pakistan's best option is to push USA for give them more f-16 or try to put together some cash for rafale or griphens. I have read the specs on the j-10 and fc-20 and i find them highly doubtful considering the fact that no correct info comes out of china anyways lol More F-16 block 52 would be a real threat to the IAF, much more that the j-10 or fc20 which i am sure you cannot depend on

the only comment to you is to read my post carefully ... nothing more ... it has all the answers to question arising in your mind

 

[desiman]

the only comment to you is to read my post carefully ... nothing more ... it has all the answers to question arising in your mind

hmm care to explain your point, dont take it personally was only trying to understand the post which made no sense to me, maybe you can make more sense out of it for me ?

 

[Guest]

can someone enlighten me for a few confusions plz:
1) why FC20s need a partner?
2) how these partners are going to cooperate eachother (a lead and a wing)?

before the financial and political issues, only after these 2 questions being answered can we go on to choose FC20s' partner, right.

 

[Sapper]

hmm care to explain your point, dont take it personally was only trying to understand the post which made no sense to me, maybe you can make more sense out of it for me ?

yar its wastage of time on my part ... since you will never be convinced ... but still i will try.

Q: pakistan can hardly afford the FC-20 let alone the Euro fighter or the rafale.
A: Pakistan is currently the only export customer, as it has been negotiating order since 2004~5. There may have been negotiations with other countries for JF-17, but no negotiations regarding FC-20's export to any other nation have come up. I am not discussing Typhoon/Rafale here, only FC-20.

Q: Just because pakistan wants something and China "says" it can make it does not make the fc-20 on par with the MKI, Rafale or eurofighter.
A: Only time can be the judge of that. Let it roll out first ... then compare. Its just like if I say Pakfa can never be on par with F-35, let alone F22, but i will never say that. I don't live in fool's paradise, i like facts.

Q: Billions of dollars of reserach goes into these amazing jet and they dont just pop out one day like the j-10.
A: Do you mean to "China is a poor poor nation" and cannot afford R&D for 4.5 Gen ? If that's your intent dear, you need to read articles about concerns of USA over budget allocated for Chinese Military and its R&D. I have first hand knowledge (from my relative) of how huge Chinese Military Aircraft industry is how much they are investing into it, both in dollars and in manpower.

Q: I highly doubt that Chinese tech is anywhere even close to russian tech let alone western tech. The Chinese are known to copy everything they get their hands on. I can bet on anything that the j-10 is a modified version of the MKK that they currently have in service.
A: So if it is copy of MKK, its comparable to MKK.

Q: I am almost 100% sure that the j-10 or 11 are all copied from somewhere just like how the f-7 was a total copy of the mig-21.
A: J11 is license built Su27/Su30. F7 is license built Mig21. Just like Indian Su30MKI is license built Su30MKK. FC-20 is not license built ... it BEING developed, just like FC-1. They may have tech from all over, just like Su30MKI which has Israeli jammer, Russian Enginer+radar+etc, but FC-20 is a pure Chinese product.

Q: I think pakistan's best option is to push USA for give them more f-16 or try to put together some cash for rafale or griphens
A: We are already exercising that option, but F-16/Rafale/Grippen have many technological and logistical limits which FC-20 will overcome for PAF.

Q: I have read the specs on the j-10 and fc-20 and i find them highly doubtful considering the fact that no correct info comes out of china anyways.
A: And yet you insist to form your opinion without any evidence. PAF hasn't decided whether they like FC-20 or dislike it, they are waiting for it to come out first.

Q: More F-16 block 52 would be a real threat to the IAF, much more that the j-10 or fc20 which i am sure you cannot depend on.
A: We "depend" on China like Indians depends on Russia. Although F16 is a good platform, FC20 might be better, but their is a possibility that it might not be that great. Again, let it come out, then decide. On a similar note, India has the "greatest" Su30MKI, then why go for MRCA, why not buy more Su30MKI. Its because diversity is a good thing. PAF and IAF both understand this, i urge you to do the same.

Hope that answers you queries.

 

[batmannow]

And you think J-11B is going to happen and chacha China will give us anything we want regardless of the money? Buddy NO high tech top of the line equipment for pakistan from China, kindly get this on your bulletin board where you see it every day. Maybe in the future things may change. J-11B may find its way in PAF maybe after 2025 .

D, Growler;!
well, J-11bs have a very realistic chance if any how we can get a more westrn upgrads , like of FC-20s & JF-thunders, surly it has the capacity to become the closest thing to SU-30 WHICH is bassed on the very simmilar platform,& belive me! if you compare with RAFEALE with J-11bs upgraded with the matching patrns of FC-20s its the real & trustble partner , belive me its the next , big thing in the pipe line!
sory , to see , here & there , you are keep spreading , the untruly rummors , that CHINA is bad , its tech is of lower class, go to west RAFEALE , is the best, we should stop , getting our defence equipment from china, & your arguments always , bassed on that!

i guss, inside bottom of your heart , you know it, wont gona happen at least in comming 15 years time, i guss its the time to stop this,RAFEALE PROGANDA thing ,, & start think realisticly!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

D, Growler;!
well, J-11bs have a very realistic chance if any how we can get a more westrn upgrads , like of FC-20s & JF-thunders, surly it has the capacity to become the closest thing to SU-30 WHICH is bassed on the very simmilar platform,& belive me! if you compare with RAFEALE with J-11bs upgraded with the matching patrns of FC-20s its the real & trustble partner , belive me its the next , big thing in the pipe line!
sory , to see , here & there , you are keep spreading , the untruly rummors , that CHINA is bad , its tech is of lower class, go to west RAFEALE , is the best, we should stop , getting our defence equipment from china, & your arguments always , bassed on that!

i guss, inside bottom of your heart , you know it, wont gona happen at least in comming 15 years time, i guss its the time to stop this,RAFEALE PROGANDA thing ,, & start think realisticly!

Dear batmannow

The problem here is that you are way too much deluded and cant think beyond this narrow tunnel with blind patriotism for China. I am not against alliance with China but cant stand these fanboyish claims that Pak-China has a special friendship that no other country has and China is willing to sacrifice for us.
Rafale, EF-2000, Gripen were all evaluated by PAF so before you make a claim out of this thin air kindly provide me a reliable source that backs up J-11B has been evaluated by us and the option to acquire them is well on the cards. Let me also enlighten you that Europe will eventually not bother upgrading our Chinese platforms with their latest technology for us. This would very much effect their own defence industry export market as their own platform wont see much buyers. What India does is that they buy Western platform with their systems TOT and ingeniously assemble them at home, Arjun =LEO II variant Dhurv=Bk-117 is a prime example. Pakistan cant take just about any non western platform and ask west to upgrade with latest technology... thats just not going to happen.
Thats why I say if we drop FC-20 fallow on orders and allocate that money and divert those funds for a high tech western MRCA like the Rafale which will be by far technically superior to Super hornet and MKI.
Also another thing I do not hate China neither i personally have anything against it but if their is too much fanboy talk about FC-20 being technically par with Rafale EF or gripen then i am not going to tolerate that rubbish. Atleast i am not as cheap as indians who only look at satisfying their ego even if it takes to lie, they are pathological liars and i am not.