FC-20 needs a partner!

[desiman]

you are slapping yourself with double standard

I dint get you point, care to explain ?

 

[desiman]

economy yes iagree with you this is the only thing wich india take edge on pakistan and fullfil the requirment of the iaf

thank you for finally agreeing with my brother, i dont see why people can argue over points that dont even make sense. PAF is a potent force and can counter an IAF attack not by buying the latest jets but my clever planning and implementation. Buying the same aircraft or even aircraft similar to that of the IAF will only but extreme pressure on Pakistan and take resources away from where they need to be. I think Pakistan should focus more on its navy as that can be a real deterrent to India more than some advanced jets. What do you think ?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

ok at this time PAF have no fund and you sad j11 is not for export and there is doubt about j10 or j10b and jf17 is not capible to much then what is the futuer of PAF

i think not safe

can you explane your view's please
wating for reply THANK'S

JF-17 for its role is a perfect platform for PAF, I mean as a light multi role combat plane... west will have no problem with supplying just about anything for JF-17 because its not much of a concern as they are already done with 4th generation and moved on to 4.5... It does not mean 4th gen are just cr@p now and must be dealt with respect but FC-20 being a 4.5 demands latest technology which i am afraid wont be available specially like frace would prefer to sell Rafale and earn some money for them self rather then help pakistan to make FC-20 par to world class fighter... however if things work out for pakistan they may probably be lucky enough to get their hands on "export" versions of Rafale, Gripen type systems like radar avionics etc...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

thank you for finally agreeing with my brother, i dont see why people can argue over points that dont even make sense. PAF is a potent force and can counter an IAF attack not by buying the latest jets but my clever planning and implementation. Buying the same aircraft or even aircraft similar to that of the IAF will only but extreme pressure on Pakistan and take resources away from where they need to be. I think Pakistan should focus more on its navy as that can be a real deterrent to India more than some advanced jets. What do you think ?

hey my whole point is.... dont waist money on something like 100 J-11 but a cost effective solution "quality" technology would be 36 Rafale which should work very very effectively in conjunction with 80 or so upgraded F-16s.. the more number of planes we have in our air force the more $$$ it is going to deplete..

 

[naseebkhanniazi]

hey my whole point is.... dont waist money on something like 100 J-11 but a cost effective solution "quality" technology would be 36 Rafale which should work very very effectively in conjunction with 80 or so upgraded F-16s.. the more number of planes we have in our air force the more $$$ it is going to deplete..

rafale is good but there is an other thread what about this ZARDARI can you tell me the anti of this one

 

[Hayreddin]

rafale is good but there is an other thread what about this ZARDARI can you tell me the anti of this one

can you elaborate your point ???

 

[abbasniazi]

Though i already had my say in this thread but i'd like to add more to it.

As far as availability of funds is concerned, we have bottlenecks here which are likely to prevail for sometime.

so acquisition of an entirely new platform will not only require huge amount of $$$ but it would not be that easy or quick for PAF to bring in and aquaint its pilots with a new platform overnight.

In my opinion Pakistan should expedite its research with respect to aircraft development and mastering state of the art technologies like latest radar development technology, engine development technology, composite materials technology etc.

pakistan should set an aim to lay down a very strong and vibrant infrastructure for the development and mass production of any future project to be materialized for fighter development.

this would be a painfull and tough task but it would bare out fruits in the next 10 years and pakistan would be at par with anyother nation in the world.

once we have required infrastructure and trained man power who can not only realize state of the art technologies but have the potential of innovating something new, this asset would bare out fruits in the form of synergies for other defence related developments, Industry and Space also.

so my advice to PAF is to put its head down and work on the above mentioned line of action. and trust me, India can't attack you unless u giveup ur lethal nuclear an missile capability completly.

 

[hack]

hey my whole point is.... dont waist money on something like 100 J-11 but a cost effective solution "quality" technology would be 36 Rafale which should work very very effectively in conjunction with 80 or so upgraded F-16s.. the more number of planes we have in our air force the more $$$ it is going to deplete..

Growler...India won't buy either the F-18 or the F-16. If Bush was in power then it was a given that either of the American aircraft would be chosen but with Obama relations have gone downhill pretty quickly.

Broadsword: Naval LCA: US puts Lockheed Martin off Tejas flight path

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi Growler,
I think after suffering sanctions of all types PAF has a very well contemplated plan for modernization till 2019 and according to that plan no new fighter is insight in PAF line up and this is very understandably so.

For the first time PAF has realized that we cannot compete with IAF by just buying new system and quantity is just irrelevant here.
-If PAF buy say 40 -60 front line 4.5 gen fighter jets what is grantee that India will not go for 100-120 similar or better one?
-What are the odds that Europe will continue to support us in real war with India which is strategic partner for Europe for business?
-How long Pakistan will able to keep on buying expensive jets from West?
-Will West ever offer us ToT without strings attached?
-Last but not the least, If PAF had to request China for debt to start JF-17 production in Pakistan how come PAF will able to fund Western fighters?

I think keeping in mind all these aspects it is clear why PAF future road map is so much dependent on China or in my words why it is not depending on West or US.

At present, PAF is in bad shape viz-a-viz IAF w.r.t technology. But good thing is PAF is bridging this gap pretty fast. If we can recall 1990s there were no BVR, no AEW&C, no IFR, no capabilities to made any fighter at home... But in 2010 things will be lot better. PAF will have all these technologies. So where lies real gap which PAF can't match is NUMBERS.. Which IAF will have in their favor and forever. Now can we live with IAF on our borders with huge numbers? Answer is NO. What is solution... A potent platform that can challenge (at least above Pakistani grounds) anything IAF has and importantly PAF will have to have this platform in NUMBERS. Here is point when economics comes in which is more critical aspect that anything else in this whole discussion.

PAF can't afford too many Western fighters economically. This is fact. Now any proposal must be cohesive with this fact. J-10 needs a partner and it has one already; JF-17.

Now I don't know what people (read Growler) thing here but FACT is PAF will never able to match Front line fighters of IAF by buying them so only way forward is to invest on THUNDERS and FC-20 and build them in home. Now there will be an argument that How some Western country will sell us there top of the line avionics and weapons for our project... Hmmm... I think PAF is also aware of this thing as well and that's why PAF is pushing Chinese companies to make systems as per its own requirements. We all know Chinese are not there in avionics and weapons where West or Uncle is but having said that it is also a FACT that with pace China is pushing its R&D it will not remain like this forever and PAF is waiting for that moment.

Now next argument will come what if war between Pakistan and India start tomorrow? Let me tell you India knows situation very well and it also know that with a weak AF Pakistan will use its BM/CM arsenal very ruthlessly so i don't see any kind of war between Pakistan and India as long as nuclear arsenal is there with PA.

Why PAF must just stick to J-10 and JF-17? Well apart from economics Pakistan's defense doctrine answer this. We are a defending nation so no need weapon system designed for pure attacking purpose. Both multirole platform will have enough potential to do serious damage to Indian military infrastructure. Deployed in numbers with some wisely developed combat tactics along with ground sensors and assets (SAM) these can make life of any adversary painful. And don't forget these will be backed by AWACS and F-16s will be there as well.

Quality over quantity... Yes true. But even a F-22 can't be at 10 places at same time.

So, i don't see any need for a NEW western fighter for PAF. But these comments are for just PAF only. If asked about Pakistan Navy.. YES we do need Rafale there with some killer anti-ship weapons.

 

[SBD-3]

JF-17 for its role is a perfect platform for PAF, I mean as a light multi role combat plane... west will have no problem with supplying just about anything for JF-17 because its not much of a concern as they are already done with 4th generation and moved on to 4.5... It does not mean 4th gen are just cr@p now and must be dealt with respect but FC-20 being a 4.5 demands latest technology which i am afraid wont be available specially like frace would prefer to sell Rafale and earn some money for them self rather then help pakistan to make FC-20 par to world class fighter... however if things work out for pakistan they may probably be lucky enough to get their hands on "export" versions of Rafale, Gripen type systems like radar avionics etc...

west knows that we cant buy their flying beauties so they wont have any objection on supplying techs for FC-20. You ve heard "Something is better than nothing"

 

[SQ8]

Growler...India won't buy either the F-18 or the F-16. If Bush was in power then it was a given that either of the American aircraft would be chosen but with Obama relations have gone downhill pretty quickly.

Broadsword: Naval LCA: US puts Lockheed Martin off Tejas flight path

somebody wanna tell the person who wrote the article that lockheed martin had nothing to do with the hornet or the tomcat or any naval fighter since the Seastar.

 

[hack]

somebody wanna tell the person who wrote the article that lockheed martin had nothing to do with the hornet or the tomcat or any naval fighter since the Seastar.

Evidently they were asked due to their experience in building the F-35(don't ask me the thinking behind it)...anyway the point is that all these "technical" delays which have started since Obama came into office will surely force the Indians to look in another direction.

 

[wangrong]

 

[PakShaheen79]

Thanks wangrong

That long pitot tube tells that J-10B is going under some AoA like trials. Can't believe China started to produce something like these after J-7 and J-8. Amazing working indeed.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hi Growler,
I think after suffering sanctions of all types PAF has a very well contemplated plan for modernization till 2019 and according to that plan no new fighter is insight in PAF line up and this is very understandably so.

Hey then pakistan should learn its lessons from the past and drop Erieye Type-214 new F-16 and other High tech deals in favor of "export" variant of "chinese" equipments?

For the first time PAF has realized that we cannot compete with IAF by just buying new system and quantity is just irrelevant here.

I thought they realized that back in the days when PAF was massively out numbered.

-If PAF buy say 40 -60 front line 4.5 gen fighter jets what is grantee that India will not go for 100-120 similar or better one?

This is your assumption. But let me enlighten you, If we do drop our eggs over and over again in one basket "China" i can grantee you that India will have a better MRCA. At the end of the day, India has the boeing deal Super Hornet in mind. Those who say India will have a split of EF Rafale Mig-35 are nothing but fools and understand nothing.

-What are the odds that Europe will continue to support us in real war with India which is strategic partner for Europe for business?

If this was even a concern then PAF would have never invested in western technology which they are still doing.
What ever we are buying from west comes with spares and spare. No wonder why the new F-16 deal costs so much.

-How long Pakistan will able to keep on buying expensive jets from West?
-Will West ever offer us ToT without strings attached?

uhh let me see.
Type-214 (TOT)
Erieye (TOT)
i think enough being said. If pakistan can get the most powerful conventional sub from Germany then i dont think Rafale is an issue which we are all trying to make with blind hatred and generalization.

-Last but not the least, If PAF had to request China for debt to start JF-17 production in Pakistan how come PAF will able to fund Western fighters?

If China is willing to help us with funding so PAF is using this opportunity, i dough the reason is that PAF is in any sort of debt yet.

I think keeping in mind all these aspects it is clear why PAF future road map is so much dependent on China or in my words why it is not depending on West or US.

If pakistan was a rich country then what you are saying would not have been the case today.

At present, PAF is in bad shape viz-a-viz IAF w.r.t technology. But good thing is PAF is bridging this gap pretty fast. If we can recall 1990s there were no BVR, no AEW&C, no IFR, no capabilities to made any fighter at home... But in 2010 things will be lot better. PAF will have all these technologies.

And remarkably only the western equipments like AMRAAM Erieye will give us the advantage that we need. I dough SD-10 or ZDK-03 can provide even 50% of that.

So where lies real gap which PAF can't match is NUMBERS.. Which IAF will have in their favor and forever. Now can we live with IAF on our borders with huge numbers? Answer is NO. What is solution...

Quality over quantity

PAF can't afford too many Western fighters economically. This is fact. Now any proposal must be cohesive with this fact. J-10 needs a partner and it has one already; JF-17.

Now I don't know what people (read Growler) thing here but FACT is PAF will never able to match Front line fighters of IAF by buying them so only way forward is to invest on THUNDERS and FC-20 and build them in home.

typically blind patriotism for China.

Now there will be an argument that How some Western country will sell us there top of the line avionics and weapons for our project... Hmmm... I think PAF is also aware of this thing as well and that's why PAF is pushing Chinese companies to make systems as per its own requirements. We all know Chinese are not there in avionics and weapons where West or Uncle is but having said that it is also a FACT that with pace China is pushing its R&D it will not remain like this forever and PAF is waiting for that moment.

And you think china can do that over night? you know what PAF officer told me. We buy chinese equipment because they are cheap not becuase they are best bang for the buck.

Why PAF must just stick to J-10 and JF-17? Well apart from economics Pakistan's defense doctrine answer this. We are a defending nation so no need weapon system designed for pure attacking purpose. Both multirole platform will have enough potential to do serious damage to Indian military infrastructure. Deployed in numbers with some wisely developed combat tactics along with ground sensors and assets (SAM) these can make life of any adversary painful.

Mind you PAF defense is "OFFENSE".

And don't forget these will be backed by AWACS and F-16s will be there as well.

but i thought F-16s would be stuck in hangers during war as uncle sam will have the magic button.

Quality over quantity... Yes true. But even a F-22 can't be at 10 places at same time.

if it has 10+ AAM then it is very capable to do so..