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Fawad Chaudhry launches 'Pakistan's first official' moonsighting website

Brother Ghazi and Simurgh

I have one question for you (and its not to be sarcastic):

Have you guys ever traveled by car?

You probably get my point. Lets have a discussion from this question.

you are missing the point.

We do not have consensus regardless of the issue at our hand.

And we don´t because we have so many different hadith to stick to
 
Yes it should be done by individuals as well that's why they collect shahadah of moon sighting. But how can we trust govt politicians in term of this who knows who is working on what agenda? and we have seen it all. You never know one who is sitting at high rank is qadiyani or what until it come out in public.


So it should be done in presence of mufti and if money is the problem that govt has to give out money. Sold 1 minister car which is around 36-40 lacs or don't pay at all but make one department where one announcement came out and that can be followed by all.

On one condition: All religious groups will do ONE start and ONE Eid. And anyone pushing for different start/Eid will reside in jail for 2 years.

Then I have no issues with the proposal above. Get all the religious groups on board or the government will decide without them. 3 Eids in Pakistan is unacceptable.

My only argument is the sunnah cannot be scrapped.

If only the different groups followed sunnah.

One UK group follows KSA, one follows Pakistan and one UK meteorological department! Who is following sunnah then? They are all headed by these Alims!
 
On one condition: All religious groups will do ONE start and ONE Eid. And anyone pushing for different start/Eid will reside in jail for 2 years.

Then I have no issues with the proposal above. Get all the religious groups on board or the government will decide without them. 3 Eids in Pakistan is unacceptable.



If only the different groups followed sunnah.

One UK group follows KSA, one follows Pakistan and one UK meteorological department! Who is following sunnah then? They are all headed by these Alims!

Uk and all west are not muslim state thats why some follow saudia and some othrrs
 
Uk and all west are not muslim state thats why some follow saudia and some othrrs

And 3 Eids in Pakistan?

Problem is that groups don't want to all agree on one date. Bad for business.
 
And 3 Eids in Pakistan?

Govt.made royat e hilal to follow mJority does only few like popazai are stubborn and bring ego.mufti muneeb ur rehman already invited them and they do refuse everytime
 
Govt.made royat e hilal to follow mJority does only few like popazai are stubborn and bring ego.mufti muneeb ur rehman already invited them and they do refuse everytime

Should there be prosecution of those who do not agree?

I'm waiting for the day when khutbahs are strictly regulated in all mosques.
 
I have - But i don´t know if you have before you tell me.

So now let me spell some thing out for you: The moon has an orbit around the earth. And the earth has an orbit around the sun. Just as other planets have around the sun. These orbits are well defined and the course of the planets happens very strictly in a predetermined time. Hence the astronomists have a very precise knowledge of when the sun will rise and the sunset. We know that down to the minute. The position of the sun relatively to the earth, and the position of the moon relatively to the earth and sun is known and can be calculated down to the minute because the sun, earth and moon have a constant speed in the universe. So we can calculate what the position of the moon will be at any given time. So we know at what day we will have a new moon. So there is no uncertainty in this. So there is no need to sight the moon because we know out our calculations at what day there will be a new moon. And these calenders of the new moon has been available for centuries and they have never been wrong....

The next question is: Who has made these laws of motion? Who is responsible for the orbit of the moon and earth? Is it Newton? or Kepler? NOPE- you guessed it right. It is Allah - Allah made these laws of motion. So will Allah make imperfect laws ie laws that changes and behaves at the pleasure of the people? No Allah will not. His laws never changes. And think about it - how many things do we do and plan based on these unchangeable physical laws? Ever been on plan bro? Traveled by ship? Did a x-ray of the lungs to see if your father had a pnemonia? Took medicine? I could just carry on. We live our life based on Allah´s laws. We abide by them even if we don´t want to or don´t think about them. My imaan is that even the social laws is from Allah and not following them will have negative on our us and our society - but that is a different discussion for an another time. Coming back to the need of sighting of the moon to tell whether its a new month (and hence Eid) or not is just so not necessary anymore....

Read the Quran - what does that tell you?

Just one ayat should be enough: 39/5: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
Translation Yousef Ali.

What do you get out of this ayat?

And the next thing you probably will say is we need to do it because Muhammad (PBUH) did it in his time. OK - i´ll go with that. But then you also need to accept that you cannot travel by cycle, car, ship or plane - you will need a camel. You also cannot use a watch to tell the time, you cant use a lamp to light up a room, and you can´t use internet to get knowledge... uuuups.... why because muhammad (PBUH) didn´t use them....

Keep the principle friend - always keep the principle: We will celebrate Eid the day after the new moon... Then you will be able to both progress and adhere to spirit of Islam. How lovely will it be if ALL muslims through out the earth celebrate eid at one single day? That will not happen unless everyone adhere to the principle.

And at a site note: how come we don´t celebrate Eid the day the moon is sighted in Saudia Arabia? - please do not bother to answer, I just want you to think about it....

I do not need a lesson in astronomy. I am quite aware of how the moon orbits and how it has phases.

Now that that’s out of the way, please tell me where in your post did you reply when i showed you where an islamic country still does moon sighting? Verbosity does not make a point more valid. Also note none your examples work as a religious analogy. Yeah we take medicine, what does that have to do with the price of peanuts? Allah’s laws are manifested in the Sunnah and do not change. How then can you reject Allah’s law implemented through the Prophet and proceed in inventing your own methods?

And i do not say , let me quote you the Quran and Hadith since you like cherry-picking for your own agenda.


“… So whoever among you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadaan), he must observe sawm (fast) that month…” [al-Baqarah 2:185]

Note the word “sights” please.


The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Fast when you see it [the new moon] and stop fasting when you see it, and if it is cloudy then complete the month with thirty days.”

Again sight.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made the beginning of the fast conditional upon the confirmed sighting of the new moon of Ramadaan, and the ending of the fast conditional upon the confirmed sighting of the new moon of Shawwaal; he did not connect this to calculations of the movements of stars or other heavenly bodies. This is how it was done at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), during the rule of the Khulafa’ al-Raashidoon, at the time of the four imaams, and during the three centuries which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said were the best.

Referring to calculations of the lunar months to start and end periods of worship, instead of actually sighting the new moon, is a bid’ah (reprehensible innovation) that has no good in it and has no basis in sharee’ah. The best of all is to follow the salaf in religious matters, and the worst of all is to follow newly-invented innovations in religion. May Allaah protect us and you and all the Muslims from tribulation, both obvious and hidden.

Please stop quoting Quran and Hadith when you do not even know which Ayat and Hadith have to do with sighting of the moon.

Also you assume me to be narrow-minded so you gave me a dense explanation of modern science and it’s virtues. I am not against science. I already maintained that science is to be used as a tool to help.
 
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Science doesn't believe in any religion and that is a truth,
I agree. Science does not believe in any religion, because it is not a person. Science is the "systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment".

all famous/top scientists are atheists these days and for most part of the history.
Wrong. Most scientists through history have not been atheists. Galileo, Isaac Newton, and many others, even Charles Darwin were not atheists. They may have been secular, even may have had issues with certain Christian doctrines/beliefs, but they were not atheists. Atheism among scientists is a more recent phenomenon. Even then, most scientists today are not atheists. See this, this, and this.

No religion produces any kind of scientists. Religion is a "non-issue" for science and scientists, it is just treated as personal thing for a person for spiritual reasons.
You cannot possibly know that. Religion inspires/informs people in many ways, and those people study sciences and create scientific breakthroughs. Religion often plays a part in shaping the personality of a scientist, and contributes to his/her persistence, integrity, ethics, and perseverance.
 
You cannot possibly know that. Religion inspires/informs people in many ways, and those people study sciences and create scientific breakthroughs. Religion often plays a part in shaping the personality of a scientist, and contributes to his/her persistence, integrity, ethics, and perseverance.

That is what I also said that science doesn't provide ethical values to a person. Your ethics, integrity, truthfulness and honesty all depend on the society and household in which you grow. Science has nothing to do with it. Science is as you said just about describing and understanding observable physical phenomenon that can be proven by experimental evidence. Science is about questions related to physical phenomenon in terms of "What, How, Why". So in science first you define a phenomena that is what part, then you describe how that phenomenon takes place and finally you describe "why" that particular phenomenon takes place place the way it takes place. Answering the questions related to "Why" are the most important questions in science, all scientific research always revolves around answering various kinds of "Why's" about various types of physical observable phenomena.
 
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Narrated Ibn `Umar:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "We are an illiterate nation; we neither write, nor know accounts. The month is like this and this, i.e. sometimes of 29 days and sometimes of thirty days."

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/30/23


We are a technologically advanced nation/country ... The condition of 'moonsighting by one or two upright Muslims' is no more applicable as we aren't illiterate any longer.
 
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "We are an illiterate nation; we neither write, nor know accounts. The month is like this and this, i.e. sometimes of 29 days and sometimes of thirty days."

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/30/23


We are a technologically advanced nation/country ... The condition of 'moonsighting by one or two upright Muslims' is no more applicable as we aren't illiterate any longer.

It is every bit as valid today. Your point also valid. I am an advocate of using science as an aid. Science can tell you when you can view the moon, at what degree and for how much time.
But, as per Hadith, anything not done IN RELIGION BY THE PROHET (ﷺ) IS BIDAH. Following is what the Same Book of Hadith says about Bidah


Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Whoever innovates something into this matter of ours(religion) which does not belong to it will have it rejected.”

In another narration, the Prophet said, “Whoever performs a deed that is not in accordance with our matter(religion) will have it rejected.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 2550, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1718

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

This might be open to interpretation but the majority interpretation is that any inventions in religion (as a religious act or for religious acts) is Bidah. I would argue replacing the physical act of moon sighting with Calendar based calculations is exactly that. An innovation in religion.
 
Should there be prosecution of those who do not agree?

I'm waiting for the day when khutbahs are strictly regulated in all mosques.

That day I think you wouldn't be able to see in Pakistan. Why because until unless we have Islamic Sharia Law in Pakistan people of pakistan is out of control.

You stop them by force they will burn the buses etc.

If you want to control public that they follow law then you must bring Islamic Sharia Law in Pakistan otherwise western Law we are already suffering from.
 
It is every bit as valid today. Your point also valid. I am an advocate of using science as an aid. Science can tell you when you can view the moon, at what degree and for how much time.
But, as per Hadith, anything not done IN RELIGION BY THE PROHET (ﷺ) IS BIDAH. Following is what the Same Book of Hadith says about Bidah


Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Whoever innovates something into this matter of ours(religion) which does not belong to it will have it rejected.”

In another narration, the Prophet said, “Whoever performs a deed that is not in accordance with our matter(religion) will have it rejected.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 2550, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1718

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

This might be open to interpretation but the majority interpretation is that any inventions in religion (as a religious act or for religious acts) is Bidah. I would argue replacing the physical act of moon sighting with Calendar based calculations is exactly that. An innovation in religion.


It's only as much Bidah as is the use of loudspeakers for Azan... or using Internet for teaching Qur'an.. or riding a car instead of a camel .... No one is trying to change/alter 'religion' or add something new to it... 1400 years ago there were no means of knowing if the lunar month had changed except for viewing the crescent with the naked eye. That's why those Ahadith. Have you ever wondered why lunar months were so important for those early Muslims? Allah states in the Holy Qur'an:

"... He made the night still, and He rendered the sun and the moon to serve as calculation devices. Such is the design of the Almighty ..." [6:96]

"They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people.. " [2:189]

"Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months" [9:36]

"He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate." [10:5]




Using technology to fully benefit from these divine calculation devices is in fact following the Holy Qur'an in letter and spirit. But if you still insist that it's Bid'ah, then I would say that it's Bid'ah Hasanah
 
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Your ethics, integrity, truthfulness and honesty all depend on the society and household in which you grow. Science has nothing to do with it.

Science has everything to do with ethics integrity truthfulness and honesty. Violation of these principles is very rare in science.
 

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