FATA Situation

[Proud to be Pakistani]

MAN YOU BELIEVE AQ EXISTS.............

 

[blain2]

Well AQ in a general sense...I do not believe that there is an organization which has a hierarchy and they all like to be called AQ as we are led to believe in the west...maybe folks with the ideology of AQ is what I am trying to get at..denying that extreme thinking is not present (its a fact of life with all religions) is denying the reality...the example of Khawarij is in front of all to see as far as the Islamic history is concerned.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

MAN YOU BELIEVE AQ EXISTS.............

It doesn't.

Terrorists do. The name is immaterial.

Happy?

Or do you deny that also?

 

[muse]

Blain

It is not the rest of the world thathas muddied the water in understanding the difference between Al-Qaida and Taliban - It is in fact, the Taliban that have muddied those waters. It is Mullah Omar and the late Mullah Dadullah who claim to be in contact with Osama, it is they who pray for the well being of this criminal organization. Please be fair.

As far as Pashtuns wanting Al-Qaida and Taliban because US occupies Afghanistan, this is not persuasive. Yes, you are exactly right that Pakistanis are not happy that US occupies Afghanistan and Pakistani influence in Afghanistan is close to zero -- not this not the fault of the US, rather it is because Pakistani establishment do not know how to exercise influence in Afghanistan. For instance, there is no Pakistani radio or TV or TV shows in Afg. - And such is the influence of the Panjshiri, that to even voice opinions about Pakistan that are reasonable, is considered to be a extremist option. And it is a FACT, that suicide bombers in Afg. have been Pakistanis, not exclusively, but there have been Pakistani flunkies who have been duped or drug addicts who have been convinced that doing such things in the name of religion and ideology.

Reality is that very large majorities of Afghans, Pashtuns and Tajiks, despise Pakistan, and they do so because Pakistan is unwilling to defend itself vigoursly, and they look to the Afghans as a easy mark. In my experience, they have a complex against Pakistan. They think it is they who should be in the position of leadership that Pakistan is in. Also they have a "young brother" complex as well - they expect and continue to expect better from Pakistan.

If anything, we should examine the manner in which our policy operates in Afghanistan - we should be exporting our culture - CULTURE - Afghans can be open to this. IN our govt policy, especially with regard to Durand line and border adjustment, we should agree with the Afghans that the Durand line CAN BE RENEGOTIATED - and that Pakistan's openning position is that a more viable border between the two should recognize the reality that Kunnar, Nuristan, Nangarhar, Paktia, Paktika, Khost and Kandahar are part of the Pakistani side of the border.

More than 80 percent of the Afghan refugees in Pakistan are 3rd generation Nangarharis.

Afghans respond to firm and fair behavior and Pakistan should be firm, this is a huge failing for the Pakistani state, that it seems not to know how to be firm and that's why it finds that it is not respected in Afghanistan.

Afterall, do Pashtuns not deserve any better than the Maoist movement, that is the Taliban?? That's right, Taliban is a maoist movement, they are best compared with the Khmer Rouge - look at their attitudes towards education and city life, compare them with that of Khmer Rouge -- Yes, Islam is being used, abused and generally trashed, but lets be fair and not assign blame where it does not belong.

As far as these Mehsud are concerned, if the argument is that because they are Pakistanis and have relatives who served in the armed forces and therefore, this then entitles them to ally themselves with international terrorists and wage war, without fear of being brought to Pakistani justice -- well, Sir, it won't wash. Just because a criminal is Pakistani, does not suddenly mean his or her crimes are forgiven or washed clean, just because a criminal espouses a religious or ideological position, does not mean his or her career as a breaker of Pakistani laws, is one with a future; in fact should the Pakistani State develop the will (backbone) that only the State will exercise coersion in pursuit of justice, Pakistan and Afghanistan and the Pashtuns will all be better off for that decision.

 

[roadrunner]

Muse, your first paragraph is correct. I congratulate you for not being in denial as others are on this forum. It's not entirely correct, but I'll let it pass for now (Al Q does not have strong bases in the tribal areas, they are guests, they know it, the Pashtuns know it, and if they play-up, they die, as hundreds of Al Q allied Uzbeks found recently.. Also, the Taliban are an ideology, the Pakistani Taliban are not the same as the Afghan Taliban) But whatever, there is anti American sentiment in the tribal territories, that is a fact (since they are seen as invaders), and Al Q does exist to a small degree in the tribal areas, mainly Uzbeks and Arabs.

There certainly are Taliban and Al-Qaida in Afghanistan, the difference is that daily aliban and Al-Qaida are targetted and killed in Afghanistan, whereas almost, it seems, daily, Taliban and Al-Qaida issue statements from Pakistani territory, almost daily, without fear or remorse, they kill innocents, and incredibly, I don't know if any other word would apply, incredibly, they do so with seeming immunity. Why is that? How is it that the much vaunted Pakistan military forces have lost more than 1000 of their numbers to Taliban and Al-Qaida? Were these Pakistani soldiers fighting Taliban on the Afghan side of the border?

Not quite right. The reason Pakistani security forces are killed in greater numbers is mainly because the coalition in Afghanistan uses Afghan troops as canon fodder. Pakistan uses paramilitaries. Afghan troops are not counted in coalition losses, Pakistani paramilitaries are. If you add up the Afghan troop deaths, and the coalition, then add up the Pakistani paramilitaries and regular deaths, you will find that the coalition deaths far exceed the Pakistani ones by around 3 times. The intensity of fighting in Afghanistan is much stronger, because most of the Taliban are based in Afghanistan. How is it that Musa Qala was in Taliban hands for most of last year for example?

Maybe we would be better off if we could at least try to be fair and attempt to see things as they are and as we wished they were. All this denial and blaming everybody else for our problems, does not really help us, it won't solve our problems.

Agree with that sentiment.

 

[roadrunner]

Blain

It is not the rest of the world thathas muddied the water in understanding the difference between Al-Qaida and Taliban - It is in fact, the Taliban that have muddied those waters. It is Mullah Omar and the late Mullah Dadullah who claim to be in contact with Osama, it is they who pray for the well being of this criminal organization. Please be fair.

As far as Pashtuns wanting Al-Qaida and Taliban because US occupies Afghanistan, this is not persuasive. Yes, you are exactly right that Pakistanis are not happy that US occupies Afghanistan and Pakistani influence in Afghanistan is close to zero -- not this not the fault of the US, rather it is because Pakistani establishment do not know how to exercise influence in Afghanistan. For instance, there is no Pakistani radio or TV or TV shows in Afg. - And such is the influence of the Panjshiri, that to even voice opinions about Pakistan that are reasonable, is considered to be a extremist option. And it is a FACT, that suicide bombers in Afg. have been Pakistanis, not exclusively, but there have been Pakistani flunkies who have been duped or drug addicts who have been convinced that doing such things in the name of religion and ideology.

I agreed with your last post that one should not live in denial. Now you must also heed this advice. It is not a fact that suicide bombers in Afghanistan have been Pakistani. A lot of the fighters that cross over from Pakistan to Afghanistan (and this aren't the bulk of Taliban), have been Afghanis themselves from refugee camps, being used as mercenaries. These are not Pakistanis.

Reality is that very large majorities of Afghans, Pashtuns and Tajiks, despise Pakistan, and they do so because Pakistan is unwilling to defend itself vigoursly, and they look to the Afghans as a easy mark. In my experience, they have a complex against Pakistan. They think it is they who should be in the position of leadership that Pakistan is in. Also they have a "young brother" complex as well - they expect and continue to expect better from Pakistan.

Afghan Pashtuns do not despise Pakistan. A minority of Pashtun nationalists in Afghanistan do despise Pakistan.

If anything, we should examine the manner in which our policy operates in Afghanistan - we should be exporting our culture - CULTURE - Afghans can be open to this. IN our govt policy, especially with regard to Durand line and border adjustment, we should agree with the Afghans that the Durand line CAN BE RENEGOTIATED - and that Pakistan's openning position is that a more viable border between the two should recognize the reality that Kunnar, Nuristan, Nangarhar, Paktia, Paktika, Khost and Kandahar are part of the Pakistani side of the border.

Now you're getting seriously bad. No way should Pakistan try and influence Afghani culture. Pakistan needs to shake off it's own culture first which in my opinion is too Indian. I personally hope that Pakistanis are smart enough to invent a unique culture of their own. Forget all this Bollywood nonsense, and so on. Afghanistan should develop its own too. It's a different country. I personally wouldn't mind Afghanistan joining the Western side of Pakistan.

More than 80 percent of the Afghan refugees in Pakistan are 3rd generation Nangarharis.

Afghans respond to firm and fair behavior and Pakistan should be firm, this is a huge failing for the Pakistani state, that it seems not to know how to be firm and that's why it finds that it is not respected in Afghanistan.

Afterall, do Pashtuns not deserve any better than the Maoist movement, that is the Taliban?? That's right, Taliban is a maoist movement, they are best compared with the Khmer Rouge - look at their attitudes towards education and city life, compare them with that of Khmer Rouge -- Yes, Islam is being used, abused and generally trashed, but lets be fair and not assign blame where it does not belong.

Taliban is an ideology. To crush a popular ideology via force is impossible. Education is important. But Pakistan doesn't have time. Therefore a tippy toe approach is an excellent way, until development can reach the areas slowly.

As far as these Mehsud are concerned, if the argument is that because they are Pakistanis and have relatives who served in the armed forces and therefore, this then entitles them to ally themselves with international terrorists and wage war, without fear of being brought to Pakistani justice -- well, Sir, it won't wash. Just because a criminal is Pakistani, does not suddenly mean his or her crimes are forgiven or washed clean, just because a criminal espouses a religious or ideological position, does not mean his or her career as a breaker of Pakistani laws, is one with a future; in fact should the Pakistani State develop the will (backbone) that only the State will exercise coersion in pursuit of justice, Pakistan and Afghanistan and the Pashtuns will all be better off for that decision.

To defeat Mehsud, I'd favour the tribals doing it. Forget genocide, it's a foolish thought.

 

[irfan1173]

I personally hope that Pakistanis are smart enough to invent a unique culture of their own.

AoA
Culture is not something like your posts which you can just invent.
Take care

 

[roadrunner]

AoA
Culture is not something like your posts which you can just invent.
Take care

Ah! My post shadow again Depends how you define culture. Most would include television as shaping the lives of many civilizations and cultures, including Bollywood. To invent a new type of cinema would change the "societal grounding" of a culture/civilization. Anyhow, this is a useless digression, back to the FATA situation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Army action to gear up after Orakzai​

* Former NWFP chief secretary says Orakzai favoured political solution to militancy in Tribal Areas

By Iqbal Khattak

PESHAWAR: A harder military approach towards militancy in the Tribal Areas seems a new agenda following the departure of Ali Jan Orakzai as the NWFP governor, who pleaded for a ‘peaceful solution’ to the issue engulfing the country’s western borders, analysts said on Saturday.

With Orakzai’s departure, political solution to the militancy in the Tribal Areas will be a distant cry and strong military response will follow, the analysts told Daily Times.

“I think that emphasis on the political solution will be lesser and hard things have to come by,” said Khalid Aziz, head of the Regional Institute of Policy Research and Training.

Since early days of his appointment as NWFP governor in May 2006, Orakzai, himself a tribesman and former corps commander of Peshawar, was giving every young tribesman a pen to change mindset of the tribal people from militancy.

Political solution: “Orakzai was trying to balance government’s acts in the Tribal Areas with an emphasis on a political solution. With his departure, this emphasis will vanish,” Khalid, a former NWFP chief secretary, said.

Within months of his appointment, Orakzai signed a peace deal with militants in North Waziristan in September 2006 and hoped that this would lead to a permanent solution.

The Waziristan attempt was copied in the Helmand province of Afghanistan where the British forces left Musa Qala district after they reached a similar deal with the Taliban.

Although Orakzai kept himself at bay from the media, the Helmand deal prompted him to say that his deal with pro-Taliban militants in North Waziristan was a good starter, pleading that Afghanistan should “follow me”.

Months later, anti-deal forces began voicing concern at the North Waziristan situation where they believed the deal was “benefiting the militants”. The much-publicised peace deal collapsed in July 2006 when the militants restarted attacks on the government forces.

Khalid believed Orakzai paid a price for his approach and cited the then governor’s differences over Waziristan policy of the government.

“He (Orakzai) did not subscribe to the government’s approach to tackle the kidnapping of (over 200) soldiers, which was no negotiations with the kidnappers,” the former NWFP chief secretary said.

Sources said key government officials negotiating with the militants felt “betrayed” by Islamabad when six tribesmen who were to be freed under the agreement for the safe recovery of the soldiers last year were not released by the federal government.

The four senior bureaucrats went on a long leave in protest at the government’s “betrayal of understanding” reached with the militants after they agreed to free the soldiers unharmed in exchange for the release of their captured comrades.

Former FATA security chief Brig (r) Mehmood Shah said that with Orakzai’s departure, the army would have a “greater say and influence” as far as military and political decisions in the Tribal Areas were concerned. “The army will feel better with a civilian as governor,” he said. “The government seemed unhappy with him.”

A senior tribal affairs analyst said the harder military approach would serve “the interests of outside forces who want the army to stay engaged” in the Tribal Areas.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Within months of his appointment, Orakzai signed a peace deal with militants in North Waziristan in September 2006 and hoped that this would lead to a permanent solution.

The Waziristan attempt was copied in the Helmand province of Afghanistan where the British forces left Musa Qala district after they reached a similar deal with the Taliban.

Would it be fair to say that the approach failed in both Musa Qala and Waziristan?

 

[roadrunner]

Would it be fair to say that the approach failed in both Musa Qala and Waziristan?

Deals are still being done in Musa Qala. Pakistan is being given an unfair time by the foreign press who expect the Army to go on guns blazing into Waziristan, when noone is doing the same in places like Musa Qala. Pakistan should handle it its own way, rather than be dictated to by a bunch of pen pushing illiterates on this subject.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Deals are still being done in Musa Qala. Pakistan is being given an unfair time by the foreign press who expect the Army to go on guns blazing into Waziristan, when noone is doing the same in places like Musa Qala. Pakistan should handle it its own way, rather than be dictated to by a bunch of pen pushing illiterates on this subject.

I agree, that a simple categorization of Mehsud's (and the other TT leaders) uncompromising attitude as a "failure" would not be honest. The deal with Mullah Nazir on the Pakistan side seems to be holding up well, and indicates that there are certain Taliban factions, on both sides, that are willing to drop an "anti-state" stance.

But that the "deals" with Mehsud and Co. have failed, of that there is no doubt. So perhaps future strategy will include going in "Guns Blazing", but with the cooperation of people like Mullah Nazir and other Tribes opposed to the violence, and against specific targets and groups like Mehsud, not the amorphous threat of "The Taliban" and "Al Qaeda".

 

[roadrunner]

I agree, that a simple categorization of Mehsud's (and the other TT leaders) uncompromising attitude as a "failure" would not be honest. The deal with Mullah Nazir on the Pakistan side seems to be holding up well, and indicates that there are certain Taliban factions, on both sides, that are willing to drop an "anti-state" stance.

But that the "deals" with Mehsud and Co. have failed, of that there is no doubt. So perhaps future strategy will include going in "Guns Blazing", but with the cooperation of people like Mullah Nazir and other Tribes opposed to the violence, and against specific targets and groups like Mehsud, not the amorphous threat of "The Taliban" and "Al Qaeda".

AM, it's really not needed and won't solve anything. I've come to the conclusion the outside world will never, or can't be bothered to understand Pashtuns. It's a mistake on Pakistan's part if they think they can go in guns blazing and kill Mehsud. Yes a nuke or some bombs could flatten the place and cause a genocide, then what..the repurcussions will reverberate all over Pakistan and Afghanistan. Orakzai is a smart cookie, and his advice should be followed. There is a diplomatic solution to this. Mehsud is more than just an "and co", it's a tribal thing. Way to defeat him will be diplomacy. Better security in the non-autonomous regions is needed. Forget democracy, it's obvious Pakistan needs to be a state like the old Soviet Union with a powerful secret service that suppressed its population. The conditions are not right for democracy unlike what the pen pushers think. Democracy will come, but first get Pakistan in order.

 

[Imran Khan]

yeh seb baty apny gaga per apny contry main action ka result hamesha bura hi hota hai

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Militants kill 8 tribal elders in South Waziristan​

Updated at Monday, January 07, 2008 1010 PST
WANA: Suspected militants fatally shot eight tribal leaders involved in efforts to broker a cease-fire between security forces and insurgents in South Waziristan, foreign news agency reported on Monday.

The men were killed in separate attacks late Sunday and early Monday in South Waziristan tribal region, reports said.

Gunmen killed three of the men at a market in Wana, the region’s main town, while the other five were shot to death in attacks at their homes in a town north of Wana.

The authorities have not confirmed the incident immediately.
Militants kill 8 tribal elders in South Waziristan

More Details:

Gunmen in Pakistan have shot dead eight pro-government tribal leaders in the troubled South Waziristan region on Afghanistan's border, officials say.
The tribesmen were killed in two separate attacks on Sunday night and early Monday, a security official said.

Three of the men died in Wana, the region's main town, while the others were shot dead at their homes in Shkai, a town north of Wana, he said.
South Waziristan is a known stronghold of Taleban and al-Qaeda militants.

The region has been at the centre of fighting between the army and the militants in recent months.

Gunmen stormed the office of Taleban commander Maulavi Nazir in Wana on Sunday night and killed three of his supporters and wounded four others, officials said.


They said five people were killed in the nearby Shkai area in another attack on the office of Commander Khanan, who is loyal to Mullah Nazir.

Officials say they suspect the attackers to be Uzbek militants, who are opposed to Mullah Nazir.

Although a Taleban commander, Mullah Nazir recently fought foreign militants with the backing of Pakistani government troops.

Reports from Wana say the attacks may be in retaliation for an incident last month in which a suspected Uzbek militant was trapped and killed by Commander Khanan's men in the neighbouring North West Frontier Province district.