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FAQs on India's Massive 34% Hike in Military Spending

A point to be noted is that in the past decade, India has not fully utilised the funds sanctioned for military acquisitions. There were many deals in the pipeline that were delayed or either in the procurement process.

With a changing external threat perception and internal security problems, the increase in defence spending should be welcomed to finish all pending acquisitions (Gorshkov, Pak-Fa, T90, MRCA, etc) on a fast track basis.

On another note, the indigenous defence industry has picked up pace as well, hence the increased allocation (Rs 8000 cr for the LCA, etc).
 
Stick to the topic, which would be arguments on the figures provided by Haq, not personal attacks and all the other BS on this thread. One member has been banned, and if I have to delete one more BS post along the lines of the last dozen I had to, those members are banned as well.

I understand that Haq's post rankles since many Indians have for a long time perpetuated the lie that Pakistan's defence budget was 8% or something (some tried that same old lame argument in this thread), but no need to get hysterical over it.

Cheers
 
What is wrong with you?
India wont come as a competition to Pakistan in begging aid.they are spending their own money,but not the donations offered.
You people take money from us in the name of economy restructuring and sponsor terrorists while your neighbour has to strengthen their own borders.

what ever happen in between their borders is their own affair and neither you nor me going to their parliament and budget sessions to argument against their increased budget to tackle fickle minded chinese on one side and terrorists on other side.
Even the who EU ,being an union,we are spending considerable amounts on our defenses.No one has the right to shout/confront others spending as long as its transparent unlike chinese.
May just like your point of view ,Indians are trying to maintain a balance with chinese budget :P
As like one of your fellow pakistan on this very forum said:"Just ******* attack India from two sides to clear it for once and all"
Indians might be scared about their future and hence may be spending billions while ignoring their 300 million poor to save a trillion dollar economy and 900 million others :cheers:

When some one gives you a chance to save either 300 million or 900 million,whom you choose?:devil:

Wrong India is not ignoring eve 300 million. India is spending more than percentage of GDP on education , infrastructure and up bringing of poor. Its not like we have just two option . india is doing right approach in a right way , Defence is also a must thing as well as upbringing of poor. Issue is not only money , Issue is Balanced utilization of money.
 
Oh!! is that so. You have all the right information and facts - and she is the one who pens an international bestseller (published by Oxford University Press) & your talents have confined you to writing blogs. Its hardly a fair world then.

Anyone who knows anything about Pakistan and its military will only nod in agreement about Dr.Siddiqa's work. The Time magazine carried out a similar article about the fauji foundation.

Some how i find it hard to take your word (a mere blogger) over two reputed sources!!

Both of those sources speak of the military's business interests (which are primarily devoted to retirement benefits, wellfare etc.). Brian Cloughley (since you are looking for reputed sources) devotes an entire chapter to debunking Siddiqa in his book on the Pakistan Army.

In any case, regardless of what your opinion is about the Military run enterprises, that has nothing to do with the defence budgets of the two nations, which, if were to check the official budget figures available online, appear to validate Haq's numbers.
 
India is population of more than 1 billion. Its not like we can do every thing in one night. It will take time and things are working on right way. There can be some problem but it does not mean India is spending every thing on one side ignoring another aspect.
 
we are still spending less then china think we have to provide security for 1.2 billoin pepoles

Rank Country Spending ($ b.) World Share (%)
— World Total 1464.0 100
1 United States 607.0 41.5
2 China 84.9a 5.8a
3 France 65.7 4.5
4 United Kingdom 65.3 4.5
5 Russia 58.6a 4.0a
6 Germany 46.8 3.2
7 Japan 46.3 3.2
8 Italy 40.6 2.8
9 Saudi Arabia 38.2 2.6
10 india 32.7 2.1
 
India is population of more than 1 billion. Its not like we can do every thing in one night. It will take time and things are working on right way. There can be some problem but it does not mean India is spending every thing on one side ignoring another aspect.

very well said..truly what i was gonna post.....

welcome...:smitten:
 
MOD EDIT: Stick to the discussion on defence budget

A large part of the proposed defense budget hike will be dedicated to fulfilling the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations. Pensions, which have gone up as a result of the Pay Commission’s award, account for about Rs 5,000 crore. Salaries have also gone up from Rs 54,560 crore in 2008-09 to Rs 81,388 crore in 2009-10.
Thus a large segment of the money allocated in the budget is meant for activities which have no direct bearing on enhancing the country’s military clout per se.

The budget hike ignores two important facts. India’s defense spending according to the CIA Fact Book was 2.5% of the GDP in 2006; for Pakistan it was 3% and for Sri Lanka it was 2.6% of the GDP. The country comparison to the world was: India 66, Pakistan 52 and Sri Lanka 63. Country comparison figures ranks the countries according to defense spending as a percent of GDP. India’s defense spending would have been much higher if the country was planning to militarily dominate the region.
More importantly, allocation of funds does not necessarily translate into better and advanced equipment for the defense forces in the Indian context. The MoD has been unable to spend over Rs 7,007 crore of the total capital outlay of Rs 48,007 crore last year. It surrendered Rs 6,750 crore in the two preceding years. In 2008-09, the capital outlay was Rs 48,007 crore. But as plans to procure the light utility helicopters and 155mm artillery guns did not materialize, the services gave the money back to the government. Is there any other country in the world where the defense forces are unable to spend the money allocated to it? The bureaucratic hassles delay the procurement of equipment and by the time the bureaucracy approves a request, the particular equipment outlives its use.

So Mr Haq, apparently Indian defense budget hike is due to lucrative MNC jobs which is driving Indian youth to comfort of shiny marbled offices and all defense could offer was a jittery & difficult life away from their families into inhospitable and hostile environment.

BTW, India's defense budget was way too low before mumbai carnage, a mere 2.5% or less. A year previous that, Pakistan hiked its defense allocation by 28.4 percent for the year 2006-2007.

MOD EDIT: OFF TOPIC - STICK TO DISCUSSING THE DEFENCE BUDGET
 
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Last year, India decided on a massive 34% increase year-over-year in its defense spending. Here are some frequently asked questions and answers about this dramatic move that puts India among the world's biggest spenders on defense.

Q1: How much does India really spend on defense?

A1: On paper, India spends $30 billion, about 3% of its GDP on defense, after an increase of 34% for 2010.

In reality, India spends closer to 3.5% of its GDP on defense.

Here's what Col.(Retd) Pavan Nair of the Indian Army has to say about it in a recent guest post on Haq's Musings:

India's own specified limit of 3% has been observed only by excluding several items like the cost of the MoD and the expenditure on military pensions which by itself amounts to 15% of the total defense outlay. Several other items like the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry (JAKLI, a regular regiment of the army consisting of thirteen battalions) and the Coast Guard are also excluded. A substantial part of the cost of the nuclear arsenal and allied systems is excluded. All para-military forces including the ones directly involved in border management are excluded. The Parliamentary Committee on Defense spends most of its time on personnel matters and resolving issues of protocol between the service chiefs and the defense secretary. The Committee looks at DE but beyond stating that DE should be pegged at 3% of GDP, it has nothing substantial to contribute. Clearly, parliamentary oversight and control seems to be missing. For several years, DE in aggregate has crossed 3% of GDP.

Pakistan spends about $4.3 billion annually, less than 3% of its GDP, and there has been no real increase year-over-year in 2010. There was a 10.15 per cent nominal increase from Rs 311.303 billion revised defense budget for 2009-2010. In real terms, however, it represents a decrease because inflation in Pakistan exceeds nominal increase in defense. Pakistan’s defense allocation does not include foreign assistance, which is expected add about a billion dollars to defense spending for operations against Taliban insurgents. The aggregate $5.5 billion of military spending by Pakistan accounts for about 3% of its $ 175 billion GDP.

“The war on terror has already cost us over $35 billion since 2001-02. We now face the prospects of incurring huge expenditure on account of counter-insurgency,” according to Pakistan's deputy finance minister Hina Rabbani Khar.

Q2: Doesn't India need to spend more on defense to fight the terrorists in the region?

A2: Terrorism is just an excuse by Indian military to get large funds and buy expensive cold war era weapons which are useless against asymmetrical threat from the terrorists any way. It lines the pockets of the arms dealers (and a few corrupt generals and officials) without increasing India's security against potential terror attacks.

The 34% increase can not be explained by India military pay hikes alone, given India's huge shopping list and its status as one of the biggest importers of military hardware in the world. The real aim is to intimidate India's neighbors, and assert India's hegemony. But it won't work as long as India has serious challenges of poverty, illiteracy, hunger, social inequity and multiple insurgencies at home by its most impoverished citizens.

Q3: Won't India just grow out of poverty, hunger, illiteracy through rapid economic expansion of its economy?

A3: Over a decade of rapid economic growth in India has done little to help its poor, hungry and illiterate population.

India has miserably failed to use a period of high economic growth to lift tens of millions of people out of poverty, falling far short of China’s record in protecting its population from the ravages of chronic hunger, United Nations officials said recently. In 2008, British Development Minister Alexander contrasted the rapid growth in China with India's economic success - highlighting government figures that showed the number of poor people had dropped in the one-party communist state by 70% since 1990 but had risen in the world's biggest democracy by 5%.

In the context of unprecedented economic growth (9-10 percent annually) and lack of national food security, over 60 percent of Indian children are wasted, stunted, underweight or a combination of the above. As a result, India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries. Both nations are included among the low performing countries in progress towards MDG1 (Millennium Development Goals) with countries such as Nepal (number 58), Ethiopia (number 60), or Zimbabwe (number 74).

Ranked at 45 on PHI index, Pakistan is well ahead of India at number 62, and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.

Q4: Why can't India do both: Increase defense spending and reduce poverty, illiteracy, hunger and disease?

A4: Defense spending should not be a sacred cow. Huge increases shouldn't get approved with little or no debate, and there should be much greater oversight of how it's spent.

It needs to be discussed and debated rationally in the parliament and the media.

What I find is that there is more debate and discussion in Pakistan on defense spending than there is in India, in spite of the fact Pakistan is fighting a war against determined insurgents in the North West.

In spite of its many other urgent issues like access to food, education and health care, it's a shame that a huge 34% boost in defense budget got approved in India without much serious discussion. A similar dramatic increase in Pakistan would have elicited howls of protest and loud demands to curtail it.

Q5: Why should there be any discussion or debate in India on defense budgets when there is consensus among all political parties that military spending should increase?

A5: That may be a good explanation of lack of debate, but the size of the increase at 34% year over year should be too big to slide through parliament without much scrutiny. And it's strange that there is no such consensus on similar spending increases on food, health care, education and poverty alleviation where India lags behind many of its neighbors.

In 2008, Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed acknowledged that India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement.

Speaking at a conference on "Malnutrition an emergency: what it costs the nation", she said even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during interactions with the Planning Commission has described malnourishment as the "blackest mark".

"I should not compare. But countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka are better," she said. The conference was organized last year by the Confederation of Indian Industry and the Ministry of Development of Northeastern Region.

According to India's Family Health Survey, almost 46 percent of children under the age of three are undernourished - an improvement of just one percent in the last seven years. This is only a shade better than Sub-Saharan Africa where about 35 percent of children are malnourished.

Unlike Indian military which got 34% increase this year, there is no one talking about a similar spending increase for human development in a nation that is slipping to lower ranks in human development. In fact, the latest Human Development Report for 2009 shows that all major South Asian nations have slipped further down relative to other regions of the world. Pakistan's HDI ranking dropped 3 places from 138 last year to 141 this year, and India slipped six places from 128 in 2008 to 134 this year.

The total per-capita expenditure on health (central as well as state expenditure) is about a third of the per-capita expenditure on defense in India. This low level of funding is the prime reason for poor health parameters which in turn keeps a large proportion of the population in perpetual debt and poverty. The UN millennium development goals pertaining to mortality rates and poverty are not likely to be achieved mainly on account of poor spending and delivery in the health sector. The allocation for federal spending on health in the current year is Rs 22,641 crores or merely 0.4% of GDP.

Q6: Why Is the Indian defense spending any of this blogger's business?

A6: India's military spending directly affects the entire south Asian region. It increases the threat perception in the neighborhood, particularly when the Indian military brass engages in threatening rhetoric in the midst of its huge arms buildup. It distorts the spending priorities of Pakistan, a smaller neighbor which was invaded and divided by India in 1971.

Recently, Lt-General A S Lamba of Indian Army has been quoted by the India media as boating about a "massive thrust into Rawalpindi to quiet Pakistanis within 48 hours of the start of assault." Indian Army chief General Deepak Kapoor has said India is ready for a “the successful firming-up of the cold start strategy (to be able to go to war promptly) in the multiple fronts against multiple different militias at the same time.” General Kapoor has talked about taking on China and Pakistan at the same time.

Haq's Musings: FAQs on India's Massive 34% Defense Budget Hike

Haq's Musings: India's Arms Buildup: Guns Versus Bread


What if we do a fairer comparison ?... Does Pakistan's Defence budget include expenses of MOD ??? NO... Paramiliary forces??? NO.... Expenses for nuclear systems?? NO... Research expenses for military equipments???? NO... Pensions??? NO.... Capital expenses??? NO


"Pakistan’s defense allocation does not include foreign assistance, which is expected add about a billion dollars to defense spending for operations against Taliban insurgents."

A big lie....

The government obtains foreign loans and grants to use for capital and
development expenditure. The external resources for 2008-09 were budgeted at
Rs 300169 million which are now projected at Rs 367433 million in revised estimates
or an increase of 22.4%. This increase is mainly due to receipts from Other Aid. The
following Table gives the details:


Classification..............Budget.......... Revised

EXTERNAL LOANS .....283776......... 347807

a. Project Loans........70055........... 64063
b. Programe Loans... 145625....... 191264
c. Earthquake Loans.. 5596............0
d. Global Bonds......... 31250........... 0
e. Other Aid...........31250........... 92480
II. EXTERNAL GRANTS.. 16393........ 19625

http://finance.gov.pk/admin/images/budget/Budget%20in%20Brief%202009-10.pdf

"The total per-capita expenditure on health (central as well as state expenditure) is about a third of the per-capita expenditure on defense in India. "

What about Pakistan ?? a whopping 1/56...:rofl:

First...Publish a transparent budget, then throw stones on others..:pop:
 
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One thing I fail to understand is why should any of us be justifying this spend (and a lot of us are). At the end of the day..

1. Our money
2. Our poor people
3. Our defence budget
4. Our decision

Guys, stop defending or proving that Pakistan is worse off. Its a moot point. All you are doing is increasing page length on this baseless thread
 
One thing I fail to understand is why should any of us be justifying this spend (and a lot of us are). At the end of the day..

1. Our money
2. Our poor people
3. Our defence budget
4. Our decision

Guys, stop defending or proving that Pakistan is worse off. Its a moot point. All you are doing is increasing page length on this baseless thread

Nobody is requesting you to defend anyone else's point of view. You are free to criticise GoI for increasing the defense expense. Nobody is stopping you from doing that.

If you are concerned about the bandwidth of this forum and you feel any post is offensive, just report it. The MODs will certainly delete the post and will ban the member. That way you will be able to save the bandwidth of this forum.

I am in support of GoI increasing our defense budget. For economic development of any country you need peace. So for peace we need a strong and modern armed force.
 
Nobody is requesting you to defend anyone else's point of view. You are free to criticise GoI for increasing the defense expense. Nobody is stopping you from doing that.

If you are concerned about the bandwidth of this forum and you feel any post is offensive, just report it. The MODs will certainly delete the post and will ban the member. That way you will be able to save the bandwidth of this forum.

I am in support of GoI increasing our defense budget. For economic development of any country you need peace. So for peace we need a strong and modern armed force.

I guess you got him wrong. He wasn't criticizing defense spend. IMO, He was saying why should we prove to other how much we should spend on what.
 
Narad and ek_Indian banned for a week for doing exactly what I said not to do. There are some others who insist on doing them same whose posts I did delete but did not ban due to seniority.

Shape up now, all of you.

This is a discussion forum -- Pakistanis can raise critical points about India's defence spending. Many Indians have done the same about Pakistan's defence spending, especially when the 34% hike was first announced, and I took pains to research the Pakistani budget and post the figures that debunked the '8%' nonsense.

To counter those numbers some Indians came up with the 'Pakistan defence budget does not include retirement and welfare', to which I posted analysis by Indian authors pointing out that the Indian defence budget did not include retirement either.

I expect the Indians to behave in a similar fashion - refute Haq's points factually or ignore the thread. Any more nonsense along the lines of 'Pakistan is jealous' will result in permanent bans.


To Haq:

I personally do not see the relevance, in this thread, of discussing the opportunity cost of military spending vs development spending. I do not think your post on how India treats its minorities is relevant, and will only hijack the thread.

I appreciate the research you have done on the numbers here, and I think it is important since it is a good argument against the criticism of the Pakistani defence budget, as I mentioned above.
 
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A big lie....

The government obtains foreign loans and grants to use for capital and
development expenditure. The external resources for 2008-09 were budgeted at
Rs 300169 million which are now projected at Rs 367433 million in revised estimates
or an increase of 22.4%. This increase is mainly due to receipts from Other Aid. The
following Table gives the details:


Classification..............Budget.......... Revised

EXTERNAL LOANS .....283776......... 347807

a. Project Loans........70055........... 64063
b. Programe Loans... 145625....... 191264
c. Earthquake Loans.. 5596............0
d. Global Bonds......... 31250........... 0
e. Other Aid...........31250........... 92480
II. EXTERNAL GRANTS.. 16393........ 19625

http://finance.gov.pk/admin/images/budget/Budget%20in%20Brief%202009-10.pdf

But those refer to overall foreign assistance/loans/grants for the Pakistani budget, whereas Haq was pointing specifically to the defence budget, where the approximately $1 billion figure comes from the reimbursements under Coalition Support Funds (CSF) from the US.

One could argue that money is fungible, and that money received by the GoP for other purposes can still be directed into the Defence budget, but then that would still reflect an increase in the defence budget outlay, and we would see it reflected in the numbers.

For example if the defence budget is typically $4 billion, and $1.5 billion additionally comes in under CSF etc, then your budget outlay is $5.5 billion total. If the GoP gets another $3 billion in foreign funding (loans, grants whatever) and you argue that the money is being diverted into the defence budget, then the defence budget should reflect that increase and be above the $5.5 billion amount.

Even if you argue that the money is being diverted into 'secret strategic programs' you would have to see some sort of a decrease elsewhere in the budget, since most of the money pumped in from IFI's tends to be for specific projects and programs that have been carefully vetted.

Only about $1.5 billion of the total US aid out of about $10 billion in aid, loan write-offs, and reimbursements was a vague 'budgetary support' type of aid (i.e the US just gave the money to the GoP and did not care how it was spent).
 
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