Face Veil removal request in Western Countries

[Junoonay]

The good thing about current events is that this laughable "liberalism" dies. The world is cold and evil. And i´m glad people here finally wake up. I go even further than security. I demand respect. When you come here i expect you to respect my customs. I think thats normal, isn´t it?



I have evry right to do so. This is MY country. When you come to MY country to insult it you feel the consequences. You want provocate and you will get the result for your provocation.

Calm down Mussolini, you can not take away personal freedom at the behest of security or cultural norms. Cultures evolve.

 

[Manama]

Welcome to the forums. I must say it is nice to see such strong opinionated, reasoned and passionate people as you and dadi ji aka @Divergent1

-Coming to your point that touches on the argument that I've been making. First off, what you are saying is drastically different than the argument of @Divergent1. If you see the opening post, one of the corner stone arguments made by her is that, her proposal is for "[Personal]safety reasons (for the women wearing the burqa)". This is the basis for the argument regarding the skimpy clothing, because just like recent surge of hate crimes might have targeted Muslim women wearing the hijab, historically we do see certain serial killers and serial rapists targeting women that wear skimpy clothing. e.g. Jack the ripper, Yorkshire ripper and Green river killer etc. So, if your argument to "advice" women that dressing as such in the current climate might put you at risk (one of the main arguments made by the OP), then the same applies to skimpy clothing as well.

-Secondly, when you say "You don't see a woman or anyone hiding bombs in their bikinis, yet they do in Burqas " and use it as your reasoning to propagate your view of a "burqa ban or willingly dropping burqas" .. Here is something that might be a bit painful to read, that I didn't bring up earlier in the thread, but based on your response ... it has to be said for the argument that you made. Do closely observe the following;

• LTTE (tamil tigers) women were documented using "bra bombs" where the explosives would be hidden inside their bras, so that they could get past security. In fact the assassination of Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi was carried out in 1991 by a tamil tiger (Thenmozhi Rajaratnam, also known as Dhanu) who hid the explosives in her bra.
• There was an attempt by AQAB (a branch of Al Qaeda) where a terrorist (Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab) tried to detonate plastic explosives hidden inside his underwear.
  
• Another terrorist (Abdullah al-Asiri) from the same organization tried to kill a saudi official, where he hid the explosives inside his rectum.

So if the burqa should be banned or willingly put down for "security reasons" ... should muslim women also have their bras, undies and rectums checked ? or should undies and bras be banned? Ofcourse, that line of logic is only reserved for things that YOU DONT LIKE i.e. Burqa in this case, while it can easily be applied on other articles of clothing as well.

-Like I quoted before; According to Peter Neumann, a professor of security studies at King's College: "I don't know of a single case in which a burqa ban stopped a terrorist attack or hindered someone's descent into terrorism."

I don't see the need to ban Burqa for the "Personal safety" of the wearer. I am strongly for banning Burqa as a whole. I am all up for the safety of other people, and thats why i'd ban it. Most of the hate crimes in the west against Muslims from time to time turn out to be fake or fabricated, so thats not really an issue. if its a problem on campus etc I don't think Muslim women are that stupid and sensitive to not stand up for their faith and probably response to the criticism.
Would I be comfortable in the west with someone fully covered? ofcourse not.

As far as "bra bombs" are concerned, thats a creativity lol. I mean people have been drugs in babies pampers. Yet my original point still stands. If it comes to a burqa or face veiled criminal or everyday outfit one, The former can't be identified by the witnesses etc, the latter can. If a man is hiding something in his rectum doesn't mean his face ain't out there. You are missing out on the important point THAT if someone was to cover his face with a mask or something, people present would infact be a little vary of the said man or woman and also feel uncomfortable. When it comes to face veils and burqa however, we are forced to accept it as norm as people keep shoving it down our throat. That normalizing takes away the vary factor from the people and can prove dangerous.

Again I don't see ANY REASON why a muslim will wear a burqa much less defend it, i get it I wear burqa from time to time in case I'm lazy and can't be bothered to press my clothes BUT never in a million reasons would i ever defend this stupid garment especially not using the "holy scriptures", and not with moral reasons when I know plenty of women are killed for not wearing it or are forced to wear it.

 

[Junoonay]

Again I don't see ANY REASON why a muslim will wear a burqa much less defend it, i get it I wear burqa from time to time in case I'm lazy and can't be bothered to press my clothes BUT never in a million reasons would i ever defend this stupid garment especially not using the "holy scriptures", and not with moral reasons when I know plenty of women are killed for not wearing it or are forced to wear it.

This topic is solely about letting an individual exercise their personal freedom without the state fringing upon them. If any person, regardless of any faith wants to put on a face veil to exercise their personal right, then it is not the right of the state to dictate their personal freedom.

 

[Verve]

-Well, forgive me for saying .. I didn't see the anger, the call for inappropriateness, the post for irrelevance when Mr @Manama was talking about the security issues in terms of "women hiding bombs inside their burqas" which btw has nothing to do with the reasoning you provided regarding face & identification on which you actually thanked him for his input and point of view .. Again, I'm sorry to ask "why the selective outrage"?

-As far as the whole face veil discussion goes, I asked you to please adress this point of mine. An answer would be appreciated.

There is a hostile environment against wearing the attire in the "open minded" "free" west (if we're to believe scientific polls and scholars that I've cited before). Heck, the very existence of your thread proves that point for me, where one of your prime pointers was "[Niqab]will endanger them due to excessive suspiciousness and uninvited discrimination",even though there is no legal hindrance for you in wearing the niqab. So if nothing else sincerely answer this one question for the entire thread;

Suppose if what you suggest (the 'willingful' abolishing of niqab by muslim women for xyz concerns) comes to pass, where muslim women decide what you suggested is completely fine and should be acted upon. Things settle down in 3-4 years and a young muslim lady wants to cover up her face and she has no legal hindrance in doing so. But will she be able to cover up her face considering;

• Her own sisterhood willingly gave up that attire.

• Now the bar for what the " socially acceptable level of covering up" has changed, thanks to the muslim women who handed out a smashing argument to the west i.e. "Other muslim women also cover up, why don't you cover up like them if you want to?"

Once, you give away your liberty, do you really think you'll be able to enjoy your previous rights even if there is no legal objection?

All this is a fight against the 'radical' muslims to turn them into 'moderates' and 'liberal' muslims. Remove the veil from the mother, the daughters will follow and so on the next generations. And to stop more women opting for veil as the upward trend is concerning the West.

This is UK government paid project and this thread is part of 'taking pulse'. There is no personal interest in this.

But I guess you know that already ...

 

[Divergent]

-Well, forgive me for saying .. I didn't see the outrage, the post for irrelevance when Mr @Manama was talking about the security issues in terms of "women hiding bombs inside their burqas" which btw has nothing to do with the reasoning you provided regarding face & identification .. Again, I'm sorry to ask "why the selective outrage"?

-As far as the whole face veil discussion goes, I asked you to please adress this point of mine. An answer would be appreciated.

There is a hostile environment against wearing the attire in the "open minded" "free" west (if we're to believe scientific polls and scholars that I've cited before). Heck, the very existence of your thread proves that point for me, where one of your prime pointers was "[Niqab]will endanger them due to excessive suspiciousness and uninvited discrimination",even though there is no legal hindrance for you in wearing the niqab. So if nothing else sincerely answer this one question for the entire thread;

Suppose if what you suggest (the 'willingful' abolishing of niqab by muslim women for xyz concerns) comes to pass, where muslim women decide what you suggested is completely fine and should be acted upon. Things settle down in 3-4 years and a young muslim lady wants to cover up her face and she has no legal hindrance in doing so. But will she be able to cover up her face considering;

• Her own sisterhood willingly gave up that attire.

• Now the bar for what the " socially acceptable level of covering up" has changed, thanks to the muslim women who handed out a smashing argument to the west i.e. "Other muslim women also cover up, why don't you cover up like them if you want to?"

Once, you give away your liberty, do you really think you'll be able to enjoy your previous rights even if there is no legal objection?

I understand your point, I agreed with parts of what the individual said and referred to the rest as 'interesting'.

I think its unfair people want to exercise privileges and rights of the West yet do not share the responsibility. As a community people come together if a mishap happened, as a Country too. You want to move to the West for better prospects, quality of life or whatever it is that brings you here, yet you do not want to conform or meet middle ground to their law of land. You do not want to share the pain or the loss of others as a Nation and that is selfish.

In countries such as South Asia it takes a very long time and a few major falls till one finally comes to sense. In the West its not like that, if something happens, actions will be put in place to prevent any further loss. You seem to forget that. You also seem to forget and are completely oblivious to the fact that this is not their culture. A western woman wouldn't be wearing short skirts in Eastern countries openly because its considered 'provocative' they're expected to respect the Law and lets be honest, they are. You know it. Yet when threats or abuses have happened in the West using a certain attire and all they request is for the current time you remove the veil due to security, its taking away rights? Isn't that disrespectful? You want to stay here, share the loss too.

More so, No it wouldn't be an issue IF a woman chose to wear it back on because the highest rate of conversion of the Islamic Faith is the West. A goth may one day choose to take her out of that phase of dressing all dark to finally a perky pink top. Changes is something the West is very used to.

 

[Manama]

-Its even more Ironic and clearly hilarious when people defend the face veil with reasons like "modesty".
Not to mention in the beginning of times especially in early Pharoah influenced Egypt where the face veil originated, women who wore face veils were either dancers or hookers to give a sense of Erotica.
Weird how times change.

This topic is solely about letting an individual exercise their personal freedom without the state fringing upon them. If any person, regardless of any faith wants to put on a face veil to exercise their personal right, then it is not the right of the state to dictate their personal freedom.

Your personal right doesn't allow you to put someone else in danger.

 

[Junoonay]

Your personal right doesn't allow you to put someone else in danger.

How is putting a face veil danger to the public? I may as well be not dressed modest, but with a face veil on, so how does a FACE VEIL puts the public in danger?

 

[Junoonay]

You cant be identified when you comitt crimes.

Thats for the security apparatus to evolve without unnecessarily infringing on the rights of others.

You make people feel highly uncomfortable.

Lol

You openly show them that you hate evryone around you, that you see their culture as enemy and that you are in no way there as a guest but as an attacker

Lol dude it is amazing that a piece of cloth triggers you this much. Explains your macho fascism.

 

[Junoonay]

You do realize that you dont cover your face in the west? We even take helmets down to talk with each other.

Explain to me, is it part of your culture to visit other nations and spit on their customs?

You don't have to if you do not want to. This is not about your feelings. I am brought up in the West, and I respect other people cultures; there is a reason why there are terms such as multi-cultural exist.

 

[Junoonay]

It is. When you cover your face you alienate yourself. Why would anyone do that, even more so when you kkow that in this country it is seen as insult.

You may walk with an underwear tied to your head, that may also alienate you, but does not mean you dictate their freedoms to them.

 

[Divergent]

It is. When you cover your face you alienate yourself. Why would anyone do that, even more so when you kkow that in this country it is seen as insult.

I understand they don't mean no harm

 

[MastanKhan]

You do realize that you dont cover your face in the west? We even take helmets down to talk with each other.

Explain to me, is it part of your culture to visit other nations and spit on their customs?

Hi,

Here in the U S---you are not allowed to talk to a customer at business with your sunglasses on---even if you are working outside in the sun---.

You have to have eye contact---.

 

[Jf Thunder]

-Its even more Ironic and clearly hilarious when people defend the face veil with reasons like "modesty".
Not to mention in the beginning of times especially in early Pharoah influenced Egypt where the face veil originated, women who wore face veils were either dancers or hookers to give a sense of Erotica.
Weird how times change.

LMAO

 

[Junoonay]

You clearly have no concept of modesty, culture and respect. I guess you would shit on a coffin on a funeral and wonder why people get mad...

Not an argument

 

[Junoonay]

It is. When you know that this is massive against the culture of the country you visit, then you dont do it. Its that easy. The world doesnt exist to serve yourcukt. If you are unable to adopt to tge local culture, you have to stay in your cave.

You are assuming I should adhere to a certain religious ideology in order to propagate its views. I am solely arguing for the face viel from Liberalism 101.