F-7P and F-7PG

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There was/is a proposal to convert the F-7Ps that we retire into a remotely piloted/autonomous QF-16 type system. Unfortunately, the higher ups were/are only considering it as a Kamikaze style system and consequently it hasn't gotten off the ground (yet). If they can be convinced of the real utility of this kind of system (EW, decoy, UCAV), then this program might actually happen.

I don't get how the program didn't take off when the higher-ups themselves thought a kamikaze system was a good idea? Like, they're on the same page (convert the F-7P into a drone), just differ on the details. Lol. They could've started the R&D and, in turn, set aside 1-2 planes for demo purposes for decoy or stand-off ECM roles.

 

[JamD]

I don't get how the program didn't take off when the higher-ups themselves thought a kamikaze system was a good idea? Like, they're on the same page (convert the F-7P into a drone), just differ on the details. Lol.

Sorry I should've explained better. Their response was "Good idea but it's not worth the time and effort to make Kamikaze drones since we already have cruise missiles." So if they can be convinced of the more important other roles then perhaps the project may be greenlit.

They could've started the R&D and, in turn, set aside 1-2 planes for demo purposes for decoy or stand-off ECM roles.

Idaras are "lakeer kay faqeer" so that kind of lateral thinking is rare and undecut by yesmanism and bureaucracy (assuming the Kamikaze project is even greenlit).

 

[aliyusuf]

AFAIK ...

F-7PG is equipped with the Selex/FIAR Grifo-MG Radar with approx 65 km AA detection for 5m^2 targets.

F-7P/MP is equipped with the Selex/FIAR Grifo-7 Mk.II Radar with approx 55 km AA detection for 5m^2 targets.

The PG enjoys a far improved slow low agility performance than the P and also has better range and payload.

So, overall it is a better fighter than the P.

 

[Nomad40]

I do not understand, you are basically agreeing with me yet at the same time saying I am wrong? Can you please re read my posts? I actually said PAF pilots will fly many types to keep up hours, than you state the same and say I am flawed!? Can you read English?

It's not my "own opinion", F-16 hours costing more then F-7 hours is a fact, not an "opinion".

Every fighter has very different flight hour operatiing costs

The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]

Modern military fighter aircraft are extremely expensive to procure with the unit cost for a single F-35A coming to $98 million, according to Lockheed Martin. That program has already gone down as the most expensive weapons system in history and it's set to cost $1.509 trillion through to 2070...

www.forbes.com

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1100/RR1178/RAND_RR1178.pdf

I think you need to read up more my friend

I believe it is best to move on --- certain points I do agree the rest I dont.

I did not state the same as you said about flying many types ---- you have to be rated on those, I mentioned about trainers.

cheers

 

[Nomad40]

With 2400 hours total airframe life plus extension package by Pac with out Chinese support of another 100-200 hours there is no life left

mirage has 8000 hours airframe/fuselage life so still being kept and will out live f7s

lastly per ac tufail it’s a simple fighter with no problem and fulfill its point interception role very well

with 40-55 minutes max sortie time fuel capture of 23/2400 liter internally plus drop tanks of 800 centerline plus 2x500 Liter drop it tanks it’s was limited on its role

Airframe life is fixable.

If the PAF is serious about a LIFT the F-7PG is a very good option....With engine upgrade the range and aircraft performance will be revamped.

F-7PG is a robust aircraft and can handle a beating by novice.

What PAC needs to do is to swap with a better engine and upgrade the cockpit.

This is not only a cost effective solution for LIFT but also a very respectable Red air for PAF.

Red air and F-7PG go hand in hand, this fighter will be a Pain in the behind to beat-- small nimble fast and agile.

 

[Khan vilatey]

There was/is a proposal to convert the F-7Ps that we retire into a remotely piloted/autonomous QF-16 type system. Unfortunately, the higher ups were/are only considering it as a Kamikaze style system and consequently it hasn't gotten off the ground (yet). If they can be convinced of the real utility of this kind of system (EW, decoy, UCAV), then this program might actually happen.

Hey that’s a copyrighted khan Vilatey idea my idea was to

1)remove the mfd, the pilot seat controls and life support system.

2) install op IR and optics in the space above the intake, bellow the intake, on the fuuselag at the end of the aircraft.

3) the radar would be larger in the shape of the canopy and kept above ,

4) theelectric linear motors/ servo would take the space where the feet go, and extra power batteries or auxiliary power to drive all this

in the middle will be the avionics and interfaces and dual/ quadrople link 16 enabled satellite radios, we would need To connect 2-3 more antena’s behind the canopy radar. This radar will look like a bulga whale on the canopy section

finally the space saved from the ejection seat could allow us to carry extra fuel or more likely the auxiliary power unit to power the extra equipment. My view is to carry the klj-7 radars of the jf-17 on theseto so we could fire the sd-10 .

This would make an awesome point defense drone and s-400 killer!
two Fox 3 and two Fox 2


k

 

[Yasser76]

I believe it is best to move on --- certain points I do agree the rest I dont.

I did not state the same as you said about flying many types ---- you have to be rated on those, I mentioned about trainers.

cheers

You specifically said cost per flying hours were the same irrespective of type, anyone who works anywhere near aircraft will tell you that you are simply wrong, you would do better if you had the humility to admit it

 

[Yasser76]

Airframe life is fixable.

If the PAF is serious about a LIFT the F-7PG is a very good option....With engine upgrade the range and aircraft performance will be revamped.

F-7PG is a robust aircraft and can handle a beating by novice.

What PAC needs to do is to swap with a better engine and upgrade the cockpit.

This is not only a cost effective solution for LIFT but also a very respectable Red air for PAF.

Red air and F-7PG go hand in hand, this fighter will be a Pain in the behind to beat-- small nimble fast and agile.

You think replacing the engine, avionics and cockpit of a plane with limited air frame life and less than one hour endurance is "cost effective"!?

Engine, radar and avionics account for around 80% of the cost of a plane. F-7PG is around $10 million per copy, maybe even less. New engines, radar and avionics would add another $10 million to that cost, on an airframe with only a few thousand hours on it, so maybe 5 more years max.

For $25 million I can go buy a M-346 LIFT from Italy that will last me 30 years.

 

[Nomad40]

You think replacing the engine, avionics and cockpit of a plane with limited air frame life and less than one hour endurance is "cost effective"!?

Engine, radar and avionics account for around 80% of the cost of a plane. F-7PG is around $10 million per copy, maybe even less. New engines, radar and avionics would add another $10 million to that cost, on an airframe with only a few thousand hours on it, so maybe 5 more years max.

For $25 million I can go buy a M-346 LIFT from Italy that will last me 30 years.

Hi please do HW about what can fit and what the PG can handle in terms of avionics.....since it is HOTAS unlike P or Mirage and It is a very durable air frame it makes it a great choice for the PAF for LIFT and because of its performance it is a deadly red force.

Think about it rationally and not offensively just for the sake of making counter arguments....unless you want to get absolutely bombarded with fact...which I really dont have the Energy and Time but I can always make an exception.

"For $25 million I can go buy a M-346 LIFT from Italy that will last me 30 years."
Then go buy it.

cheers

 

[Crimson Blue]

F-7PG possibly has HMS active - although of the rather crude monocle type based upon early Russian designs.

That's very intriguing. Which HOBS category missile is available for such HMS capable F-7PGs?

 

[Nomad40]

You specifically said cost per flying hours were the same irrespective of type, anyone who works anywhere near aircraft will tell you that you are simply wrong, you would do better if you had the humility to admit it

Costs are broken down to different categories, general costs are almost the same example committed fix cost, overheads and directs. (usual types of costs)

Variables are different and can go up and down depending on circumstances.

I think you are referring to materials costs and variable over head for a certain type......obviously they will differ from type to type and situation to situation.

In lay man terms the Fix expenses are similar as long as there is relevancy.

There is no arguing that some planes will be more expensive than the other.

That's very intriguing. Which HOBS category missile is available for such HMS capable F-7PGs?

F-7PG are very mysterious air crafts.

With a little bit of care and love they can be utilized in almost all fighter training domains of The PAF.

 

[Yasser76]

Hi please do HW about what can fit and what the PG can handle in terms of avionics.....since it is HOTAS unlike P or Mirage and It is a very durable air frame it makes it a great choice for the PAF for LIFT and because of its performance it is a deadly red force.

Think about it rationally and not offensively just for the sake of making counter arguments....unless you want to get absolutely bombarded with fact...which I really dont have the Energy and Time but I can always make an exception.

"For $25 million I can go buy a M-346 LIFT from Italy that will last me 30 years."
Then go buy it.

cheers

You seem to be getting defensive when you are called out on stuff. Upgrading an airframe with very limited hours left and replacing almosgt everything in it is insane. Anyone will tell you F-7s do not last very long when it comes to airframe hours. Happy for you to "bombard" me with facts to prove me wrong. Will wait

Costs are broken down to different categories, general costs are almost the same example committed fix cost, overheads and directs. (usual types of costs)

Variables are different and can go up and down depending on circumstances.

I think you are referring to materials costs and variable over head for a certain type......obviously they will differ from type to type and situation to situation.

In lay man terms the Fix expenses are similar as long as there is relevancy.

There is no arguing that some planes will be more expensive than the other.

F-7PG are very mysterious air crafts.

With a little bit of care and love they can be utilized in almost all fighter training domains of The PAF.

So now you are back peddling on what you said earlier and do admit flying hour costs vary? Not what you said in post number 17

" 3 hours of maintenance is 3 hours of Maintenance "

It is blatantly not, You are wrong here.

 

[Nomad40]

You seem to be getting defensive when you are called out on stuff. Upgrading an airframe with very limited hours left and replacing almosgt everything in it is insane. Anyone will tell you F-7s do not last very long when it comes to airframe hours. Happy for you to "bombard" me with facts to prove me wrong. Will wait


So now you are back peddling on what you said earlier and do admit flying hour costs vary? Not what you said in post number 17

" 3 hours of maintenance is 3 hours of Maintenance "

It is blatantly not, You are wrong here.

No not back peddling but explaining different types of costs and how they can be similar.

YES 3 hours maintainers will cost me 3 hours of maintenance cost.......What I maintain in those 3 hours is a different ball game.....I can be filling the tires with nitrogen or doing a whole GV on the air craft 3 hours are 3 hours.

If I choose to replace a light bulb or replace the whole engine those are variable and they differ in cost.

Taking Fix cost in to accounts it will not matter a ton, they will more or less remain the same as long as relevancy is maintained.

I love being called out when I am wrong, I learn from it and I grow from knowledge so as long as you can defy the laws of accounting I am standing on my points.

No hate but this is not the topic of the thread.

cheers.

 

[Yasser76]

No not back peddling but explaining different types of costs and how they can be similar.

YES 3 hours maintainers will cost me 3 hours of maintenance cost.......What I maintain in those 3 hours is a different ball game.....I can be filling the tires with nitrogen or doing a whole GV on the air craft 3 hours are 3 hours.

If I choose to replace a light bulb or replace the whole engine those are variable and they differ in cost.

Taking Fix cost in to accounts it will not matter a ton, they will more or less remain the same as long as relevancy is maintained.

I love being called out when I am wrong, I learn from it and I grow from knowledge so as long as you can defy the laws of accounting I am standing on my points.

No hate but this is not the topic of the thread.

cheers.

3 hours of F-16 maintenance is not the same as 3 hours of F-7 maintenance in terms of cost.

 

[Nomad40]

3 hours of F-16 maintenance is not the same as 3 hours of F-7 maintenance in terms of cost.

ALLAH HU AKBAR......you are right!

I don't get how the program didn't take off when the higher-ups themselves thought a kamikaze system was a good idea? Like, they're on the same page (convert the F-7P into a drone), just differ on the details. Lol. They could've started the R&D and, in turn, set aside 1-2 planes for demo purposes for decoy or stand-off ECM roles.

More or less like deceivers ehh?

you send some droney F-7s occupy the enemy and then boom Aim-120 in yo face.