F-7 to JF-17 Conversion - How Long?

[Tempest II]

A quick question: If you have a fully qualified F-7PG pilot and you need him to start flying a JF-17, approximately how long should the conversion take? Roughly?
I am assuming the theory is just going through the differences between the planes, then a few simulator hours, then onto the new plane. … …???

 

[Irfan Baloch]

please do consider that there is not even a reported trainer/ 2 seat version of JF-17 at the moment. if I recall correctly, the F-16 pilots found it seamlessly easy to fly the JF-17. where does an F-&PG pilot stands is anyone's guess unless someone comes with inside information that is allowed to be publicized.

do consider the roles of the two fighters. F-7PG is an interceptor due to its speed and quick response time. whereas JF-17 is a Multi role.
but due to mild learning curve and user friendliness the conversion seems to be easy from smulators to the actual aircraft although I am still amazed at the thinking behind the lack of a 2 seat version of JF-17. maybe the transition from simulator to a solo flight for the first time is very easy for the pilot which might suggest that it would be experienced pilots flying the thunder.

 

[Bratva]

A quick question: If you have a fully qualified F-7PG pilot and you need him to start flying a JF-17, approximately how long should the conversion take? Roughly?
I am assuming the theory is just going through the differences between the planes, then a few simulator hours, then onto the new plane. … …???

For basic flying of JF-17 and getting acquainted with new avionics which some what more advance than F-7PG, i assume it would require 2-3 days and for developing techniques with JF-17 i.e. How to use Electronic counter measures in different scenarios, BVR scenario and trying different combat maneuvers to check true potential of JF-17 maneuverability, it would require 6-7 months minimum imho

 

[Tempest II]

Thanks for your replies. Would the JF-17 be the first fighter out there to go operational without a two seat variant?
Looking at info on the net on Australia and South Africa, they seem to have 6 months for first time pilots to go from the Hawks to either the F-18 or the Gripen (from advanced flying to operational). Assuming a fully qualified (operational) F-7 pilot already, I would want to think a lot less than six months. I realise however, that hundreds more hours will be required to becomes fully proficient.

 

[SQ8]

Thanks for your replies. Would the JF-17 be the first fighter out there to go operational without a two seat variant?
Looking at info on the net on Australia and South Africa, they seem to have 6 months for first time pilots to go from the Hawks to either the F-18 or the Gripen (from advanced flying to operational). Assuming a fully qualified (operational) F-7 pilot already, I would want to think a lot less than six months. I realise however, that hundreds more hours will be required to becomes fully proficient.

The F-86.. had no two seat variant..along with a lot of other aircraft.
But if the timeline is adjusted to say those aircraft after 1990.. The F-22 went operational without a dual seater..
The F-35 will follow suit if that happens.
The JF-17 is a very easy aircraft to fly.. A qualification on the very accurate simulator is enough to allow a pilot to transition to the JF-17. Recent JF-17 pilots have come straight from Mirage sq as well.
eventually.. as more and more airframes are procured.. JF-17 pilots will be sourced directly from Risalpur.

 

[Tempest II]

I am also thinking the advances in digital/glass cockpits and simulation should make the two-seater less important for conversion purposes.

 

[Nishan_101]

There is a procurement plan for the Dual Seat and the project is near completion too....

 

[Manticore]

hmmmm i had asked the transition of new pilots and sir murad and sir x-man responded here... I highly recommend new members to dig some old treasures posted by these 2 thinktanks!
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/25895-how-pilots-assigned-different-squadrons.html
''PAF trains every pilot in each role no matter which aircraft one is assigned to.Hence when a pilot switches from an A-5 to F-16, it’s not difficult for him to grasp the air combat role or vice versa.
''

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Suddenly members take the 'silly' pill----it will take them quite some time in going from one aircraft to the other----. A years time should be considered a reasonable time to know the aircraft well enough---but to master it would be longer---many a years---any less than that is 'show boating'.

It could easily be longer---secondly---the 'playbook' / 'operational manual' of the JF17 has not been completed yet---so the term transition is a moot point for now---. As it is a brand new plane---would say---3---5 years time period would be reasonable----for those coming on board from similiar systems.

Please remember---it is not a car or a motorcycle---it is a war machine---with myriads of controls and operations and strike capabilities and evasive capabilities as well.

Again, as it is a brand new plane---therefore---there is no seamless transition for the F16 pilots to this aircraft---( the term seamless transition is extremely deceptive )---.

Transition to a new aircraft is NOT A PIECE OF CAKE---so it should not be portrayed as such---if the transition is smooth---then this plane is a piece of sh-it----it is just ordinary---just like the one we had before----so what is the big deal in getting this plane---.

The transition must be expected to be harsh, brutal and mind and energy consuming---.

 

[SBD-3]

please do consider that there is not even a reported trainer/ 2 seat version of JF-17 at the moment. if I recall correctly, the F-16 pilots found it seamlessly easy to fly the JF-17. where does an F-&PG pilot stands is anyone's guess unless someone comes with inside information that is allowed to be publicized.

do consider the roles of the two fighters. F-7PG is an interceptor due to its speed and quick response time. whereas JF-17 is a Multi role.
but due to mild learning curve and user friendliness the conversion seems to be easy from smulators to the actual aircraft although I am still amazed at the thinking behind the lack of a 2 seat version of JF-17. maybe the transition from simulator to a solo flight for the first time is very easy for the pilot which might suggest that it would be experienced pilots flying the thunder.

I remember AFM article mentioning Umar (I forgot his rank) as new addition to JFT squadron, the article mentioned him coming from F-7s.

 

[Najam Khan]

A quick question: If you have a fully qualified F-7PG pilot and you need him to start flying a JF-17, approximately how long should the conversion take? Roughly?
I am assuming the theory is just going through the differences between the planes, then a few simulator hours, then onto the new plane. … …???

Couple of F-7PG pilots have made their way to JF-17. Good radar management and high-G maneuvering capabilities are some important pre-requisites for a Mutlirole aircraft. Generally peoople who went onto JF-17 are proficient in ROSE Mirage and F-16s. Understanding the Man Machine Interface (MMI) and related avionics isn't new for them.

The simulator has been very carefully designed and it covers all subjects/scenarios required for initial fighter conversion onto JF-17. Interestingly a pilot only has 12 flights in simulator...if he scores above average, he continues the conversion else its the end of his chance.

PAF has adopted all curriculum and training paradigms from F-16s..even pilot's harness is pretty much the same. Thanks to dual seat F-16s, the first task a trainee gets in his first tandem flight on F-16 is to pull complete 9G...failing to attempt increases his failure chances in the course. This case might be slightly relaxed to 7-8G in JF-17, but one must remember that PAF never gives a second thought on Quality.

 

[killerx]

well there is abig difference between F7 and JF17 avionics to it would take sone time to get trained for JF17 but paf pilots are flying the jets by just traning in simulators and there on twin seat version yet.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

Suddenly members take the 'silly' pill----it will take them quite some time in going from one aircraft to the other----. A years time should be considered a reasonable time to know the aircraft well enough---but to master it would be longer---many a years---any less than that is 'show boating'.

It could easily be longer---secondly---the 'playbook' / 'operational manual' of the JF17 has not been completed yet---so the term transition is a moot point for now---. As it is a brand new plane---would say---3---5 years time period would be reasonable----for those coming on board from similiar systems.

Please remember---it is not a car or a motorcycle---it is a war machine---with myriads of controls and operations and strike capabilities and evasive capabilities as well.

Again, as it is a brand new plane---therefore---there is no seamless transition for the F16 pilots to this aircraft---( the term seamless transition is extremely deceptive )---.

Transition to a new aircraft is NOT A PIECE OF CAKE---so it should not be portrayed as such---if the transition is smooth---then this plane is a piece of sh-it----it is just ordinary---just like the one we had before----so what is the big deal in getting this plane---.

The transition must be expected to be harsh, brutal and mind and energy consuming---.

You seem to imply that the F-22 is a piece of **** as well.
As many F-16 pilots found the transition to the big jet relatively easy.
The F-35 will be designed from the outset to have nuggets transitioning from the T-6B or JPATS to seamlessly fit into the cockpit and fly.
If the aircraft is easy to fly.. has a better man-machine interface which reduces the learning curve.. It does not qualify it as a piece of **** or anything of that sort.
The logic you are parading is antiquated.. very 20th century.

 

[Arsalan]

Hi,

Suddenly members take the 'silly' pill----it will take them quite some time in going from one aircraft to the other----. A years time should be considered a reasonable time to know the aircraft well enough---but to master it would be longer---many a years---any less than that is 'show boating'.

It could easily be longer---secondly---the 'playbook' / 'operational manual' of the JF17 has not been completed yet---so the term transition is a moot point for now---. As it is a brand new plane---would say---3---5 years time period would be reasonable----for those coming on board from similiar systems.

Please remember---it is not a car or a motorcycle---it is a war machine---with myriads of controls and operations and strike capabilities and evasive capabilities as well.

Again, as it is a brand new plane---therefore---there is no seamless transition for the F16 pilots to this aircraft---( the term seamless transition is extremely deceptive )---.

Transition to a new aircraft is NOT A PIECE OF CAKE---so it should not be portrayed as such---if the transition is smooth---then this plane is a piece of sh-it----it is just ordinary---just like the one we had before----so what is the big deal in getting this plane---.

The transition must be expected to be harsh, brutal and mind and energy consuming---.

Strange post sir,

I mean, as the generation go up, the machine to human interface is being made more and more easy, as a rule of thum, the latest FBW computerized F-35 is supposedly easier to fly and control then the WWII era spitfire, this do not bale the spitfire better the F-35, does it?

The new planes are being designe to facilitate the pilots and reduce there work load so they can focus on mission objectives.

Keeping all this is view, the transcition must be not that HARSH!
And this DO NOT make JFT a piece of $h**ti

 

[Pakistanisage]

Hi,

Suddenly members take the 'silly' pill----it will take them quite some time in going from one aircraft to the other----. A years time should be considered a reasonable time to know the aircraft well enough---but to master it would be longer---many a years---any less than that is 'show boating'.

It could easily be longer---secondly---the 'playbook' / 'operational manual' of the JF17 has not been completed yet---so the term transition is a moot point for now---. As it is a brand new plane---would say---3---5 years time period would be reasonable----for those coming on board from similiar systems.

Please remember---it is not a car or a motorcycle---it is a war machine---with myriads of controls and operations and strike capabilities and evasive capabilities as well.

Again, as it is a brand new plane---therefore---there is no seamless transition for the F16 pilots to this aircraft---( the term seamless transition is extremely deceptive )---.

Transition to a new aircraft is NOT A PIECE OF CAKE---so it should not be portrayed as such---if the transition is smooth---then this plane is a piece of sh-it----it is just ordinary---just like the one we had before----so what is the big deal in getting this plane---.

The transition must be expected to be harsh, brutal and mind and energy consuming---.

I really get a big kick out of Non-pilots who have never even sat in a cockpit of an aircraft parked in the tarmac, suddenly become experts and have an opinion on such subjects. First of all, If you transition onto a new aircraft, you have to know the avionics, the engines, the electrical and hydraulics and all other systems associated with the new aircraft. A lot of this knowledge is passed on to the pilots through Ground School and this is the most tedious and time-consuming phase of the conversion to new aircraft. Once they understand the systems well, learning to actually fly the new aircraft in the air is the easy part. If you are already a fighter pilot trained on another advanced Jet, it is not that difficult to convert to a new aircraft and develop the feel for that aircraft. If there are no dual seater trainers, you just go up in the new aircraft with an Instructor in a CHASE AIRCRAFT who stays behind you so you can Takeoff, go to the local training area and fly the aircraft at different airspeeds and in different configurations to get the feel of the aircraft and then return to the base with the instructor in the chase plane talking you down all the way to landing the aircraft. That is how we converted to new airplane when there was no two seat trainer version for the new aircrafts in my days and I am pretty sure not much has changed in that department even today. Once you make few take-offs and landings, you are ready to fly sorties to learn the armament phase and other necessary training as a fighter pilot on the new aircraft. It takes a minimum of 200 hours of flying time on a new fighter jet to really feel comfortable and competent. Normally Pilots fly 180 to 220 hours a year, so you can get fairly competent in flying a new fighter plane in about a year's time. After a year you may still continue to learn and get more competent but the learning curve flattens out somewhat.

Back in the seventies, when we converted from a T-33 to an F-86 ( as most of you know F-86 did not have a two seat trainer, and not even a simulator) , we took off in a single seat F-86 for the first time without having been trained in F-86 ( as there was no two seat trainer version ). The instructor remained in another F-86 ( Chase aircraft) and stayed behind the trainee throughout the flight right from take-off to landing. Once the student pilot landed, the instructor went around and came back to land. I don't think much has changed today. From there on, it is just a matter of going thru all the exercises that fighter pilots repeated perform to hone their skills, including ground support missions,air combat maneuvres etc on the new aircraft.