F-7 to JF-17 Conversion - How Long?

[Tempest II]

Strange post sir,
The new planes are being designe to facilitate the pilots and reduce there work load so they can focus on mission objectives.

He is being a bit harsh … … if it takes 6 – 9 months to go from Fighter conversion qualification to Operational conversion for a FRESH INEXPERIENCED PILOT (checked the PAF, the RAAF and the SAAF curriculums), it will not take two years for an experienced pilot with anything from 3-5 years fighter experience to learn the JF-17. I agree that a lot more JF-17 flying experience through the +/-150 hours per year allocated will make the pilot more proficient, BUT THE FORMAL INSTRUCTION AND TESTING/ACTUAL COVERSION COURSE will be about 6 months give or take.
I understand about developing tactics and testing the flight envelope, developing manuals and procedures, that is going to take time, but that will be for specialist and tests pilots and is a different thing to my question.
You are but a bit hostile Sir. Tone down your language.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You seem to imply that the F-22 is a piece of **** as well.
As many F-16 pilots found the transition to the big jet relatively easy.
The F-35 will be designed from the outset to have nuggets transitioning from the T-6B or JPATS to seamlessly fit into the cockpit and fly.
If the aircraft is easy to fly.. has a better man-machine interface which reduces the learning curve.. It does not qualify it as a piece of **** or anything of that sort.
The logic you are parading is antiquated.. very 20th century.

I agree that Mastan's comment was a bit overcooked.
But I will let Khan saab clarify and dont want to put words in his mouth. my understanding is that he is signifying the complexity of a vehicle (warplane in this instance) over something that is driven/ sailed/flown for commercial or recreational reasons.

the training doesnt just stop at being able to take off , fly and land safely but the very aspect of knowing the ins and outs of the plane to survive in the time of combat and use this knowledge to defeat the enemy. this mastery will need far more time and how much? is debatable and I leave it to the pilots who actually fly it and then become the experts or instructors (if you will) for the future pilots in the coming years.

I must agree with your comment regarding F-22 and F-35 where the emphasis is taken away from managing the plane to concentrating on the mission. that saves the pilot from the fatigue of having to navigate through rows over rows of dials and panels and replacing it with high contrast (no Nonsense) to the point digital display that not only saves precious seconds but the labour too.
my understanding is that JF-17 with its LCD display and overall cockpit design is made with that in mind.

compare it with the cockpit of the Mig-29 which demands far more concentration of the pilot on the machine to keep it in the air in addition to his mission.

 

[Donatello]

You seem to imply that the F-22 is a piece of **** as well.
As many F-16 pilots found the transition to the big jet relatively easy.
The F-35 will be designed from the outset to have nuggets transitioning from the T-6B or JPATS to seamlessly fit into the cockpit and fly.
If the aircraft is easy to fly.. has a better man-machine interface which reduces the learning curve.. It does not qualify it as a piece of **** or anything of that sort.
The logic you are parading is antiquated.. very 20th century.

Oscar,

If you could kindly please use full words or words that don't have to be ********** out. I am not exactly adept at de-ciphering morse code you know.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Oscar,

If you could kindly please use full words or words that don't have to be ********** out. I am not exactly adept at de-ciphering morse code you know.

use your imagination and the you can always cheat


do I really have to spell it out for ?


Google it

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

People---stop this knee jerk reaction---. Even though the pak pilots jumped into the F86 sabres and took off----in actual war---in 65 and 71---some fresh pilot with around a year under their belt were taken out by the more experienced indian pilots.

JF17 is a war bird----the bottomline would always be----when is the pilot ready to face the opponent---the su30--the m2k---the mig29---the mig21bis----or any other war machine. The JF17 does not fly against ETHER----.

The lower the opponents aircraft is on the totem pole---the sooner the pilot would be ready

When the thread starter asks this question about efficiency--how quick is it for the pilot to learn----the question in return is---in relation to what---for fly pasts---for take offs and landings or for actual actual combat----and then with what kind of opponent.

Oscar,

How are you doing guy----?

 

[Free Soul]

Hi,

People---stop this knee jerk reaction---. Even though the pak pilots jumped into the F86 sabres and took off----in actual war---in 65 and 71---some fresh pilot with around a year under their belt were taken out by the more experienced indian pilots.

JF17 is a war bird----the bottomline would always be----when is the pilot ready to face the opponent---the su30--the m2k---the mig29---the mig21bis----or any other war machine. The JF17 does not fly against ETHER----.

The lower the opponents aircraft is on the totem pole---the sooner the pilot would be ready

When the thread starter asks this question about efficiency--how quick is it for the pilot to learn----the question in return is---in relation to what---for fly pasts---for take offs and landings or for actual actual combat----and then with what kind of opponent.

Oscar,

How are you doing guy----?

Quite sure that PAF would taken into consideration the transition part. if enthusiasts like us have this concern then just imagine the levels at which a professional and combat proven Air force would have setup a procedure for it.
Only a PAF pilot undergoing the transition would be able to comment.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Quite sure that PAF would taken into consideration the transition part. if enthusiasts like us have this concern then just imagine the levels at which a professional and combat proven Air force would have setup a procedure for it.
Only a PAF pilot undergoing the transition would be able to comment.

yea.. but you know that you can always make an informed guess. you see, even a player of a flight sim needs time to master the game before he can go online and "Pawn the noobs".

HOW much time ? is subjective. since we dont have a pilot with us at the moment so we can only guestimate. but one thing is for sure you got to sweet a lot to know very well how much can you push the plane. Against which aircraft you can go in the turn fight, and where the plane might fall like a brick and how much stress it can take.

I dont believe the comments that a JF-17 pilot who has also flown F-16 was able to beat the F-16 pilot I gues that for public consumption and to give the Indians a heart Attack.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

People---stop this knee jerk reaction---. Even though the pak pilots jumped into the F86 sabres and took off----in actual war---in 65 and 71---some fresh pilot with around a year under their belt were taken out by the more experienced indian pilots.

JF17 is a war bird----the bottomline would always be----when is the pilot ready to face the opponent---the su30--the m2k---the mig29---the mig21bis----or any other war machine. The JF17 does not fly against ETHER----.

The lower the opponents aircraft is on the totem pole---the sooner the pilot would be ready

When the thread starter asks this question about efficiency--how quick is it for the pilot to learn----the question in return is---in relation to what---for fly pasts---for take offs and landings or for actual actual combat----and then with what kind of opponent.

Oscar,

How are you doing guy----?

The knee jerk reactions usually come when the commentary makes little sense monsieur.
The JF-17 has flown against one potential adversary and has come out with flying colors.
Also.. unlike the days of the F-7, the F-6.. and till recently even the F-16.
The JF-17 starts out with a full motion simulator that allowed for practice against all imaginable adversaries.
The simulator is not for take-offs or landings or flypasts.
Its designed to take a pilot from a K-8.. and take him all the way to where he knows the maneuvers(flying, weapons and EW management) to take on an adversary.
Those skills are then honed in the air in the most accurate environment that can be replicated.

As I said before.. its the 21st century..

And Im fine thank you.

 

[Pakistanisage]

The F-86.. had no two seat variant..along with a lot of other aircraft.
But if the timeline is adjusted to say those aircraft after 1990.. The F-22 went operational without a dual seater..
The F-35 will follow suit if that happens.
The JF-17 is a very easy aircraft to fly.. A qualification on the very accurate simulator is enough to allow a pilot to transition to the JF-17. Recent JF-17 pilots have come straight from Mirage sq as well.
eventually.. as more and more airframes are procured.. JF-17 pilots will be sourced directly from Risalpur.

Sir, with due respect, as someone who graduated from Pakistan Air force Academy, Risalpur as a Pilot - I disagree with you.

You need to go through a conversion process in an advanced trainer to move on to an advanced fighter. Back in our days this jet conversion use to take place after Graduation from Risalpur at PAF base Masroor ( No. 2 SQN ).

Pakistan is in dire need to induct an advanced two seat Jet for conversion purposes.

Till that happens, JF-17 will continue to induct experienced pilots from Mirages, F-16 and F7PG Squadrons.

A fresh graduate from Risalpur is nowhere near being ready to operate an advanced Jet without a two seat trainer conversion.

 

[SQ8]

[/B]


Sir, with due respect, as someone who graduated from Pakistan Air force Academy, Risalpur as a Pilot - I disagree with you.

You need to go through a conversion process in an advanced trainer to move on to an advanced fighter. Back in our days this jet conversion use to take place after Graduation from Risalpur at PAF base Masroor ( No. 2 SQN ).

Pakistan is in dire need to induct an advanced two seat Jet for conversion purposes.

Till that happens, JF-17 will continue to induct experienced pilots from Mirages, F-16 and F7PG Squadrons.

A fresh graduate from Risalpur is nowhere near operating an advanced Jet without a two seat trainer conversion.

What I mentioned sir.. is the scenario when all obsolescent acft have been replaced by the Jf-17's.
When we will only have JF-17's.. F-7PG's and F-16's.
Possibly then.. there will be a two seat variant to cater for the need of the nugget...or a LIFT like the JL-9.
My comment was intended to dispel the impression that only experienced pilots will be able to fly the JF-17 even after fleet replacement. This is the current state.. but will not be true after most of the mirage and F-7 fleet has been replaced.

 

[Free Soul]

would Karakorum-8 not be enough for the training?

 

[Pakistanisage]

What I mentioned sir.. is the scenario when all obsolescent acft have been replaced by the Jf-17's.
When we will only have JF-17's.. F-7PG's and F-16's.
Possibly then.. there will be a two seat variant to cater for the need of the nugget...or a LIFT like the JL-9.
My comment was intended to dispel the impression that only experienced pilots will be able to fly the JF-17 even after fleet replacement. This is the current state.. but will not be true after most of the mirage and F-7 fleet has been replaced.

In that case , I think you and I are on the same page. Fresh graduates from Risalpur will need a six month to a year long training in an Advanced jet two seat Trainer to bridge the skill level. It may even be possible to include this training in the curriculum of Risalpur ( although this might be a stretch ).

I also agree that there is nothing in JF-17 that a pilot trained in an advanced trainer ( with 400 to 500 Total flight hours, including the basic training and advanced training ) cannot handle.

Cheers

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

See---over here is the understanding---when your best player can take charge of the situation----in real world---it is between your worst player in the team who can successfully operate this aircraft to your best player who can lead---and then you average it out.

As simulator time is considered a part of flying time ( correct me please )---then that time also needs to be taken into consideration----yes I know that simulator is a full fledged combat training---it is a complete flight mission with all kind of scenarios----.

 

[Pakistanisage]

would Karakorum-8 not be enough for the training?

Generally speaking, Subsonic trainers like K8 are inadequate when it comes to conversion to a Supersonic aircrafts like JF 17 and F16's. Since F-16 had their own two seat version, so Pakistan did not need an advanced jet Trainer. PAF simply took experienced pilots from other fighters and trained them on the two seat F-16. Since JF17 lacks that capability, at some point PAF might decide to induct an advanced Trainer to bridge the skill gap if they want to use relatively lesser experienced pilots for JF-17, after they phase out Mirages and F7PG's.

K8 is an intermediate trainer and is primarily designed to replace T-37's ( an excellent two engine jet Trainer from the 1960's ). Also, K8 does not have the avionics that an advanced Jet Trainer will have to convert to a modern Jet fighter. Probably, one or two squadrons of China's Hongdu's L15 Advanced Trainers might be a good choice for the PAF.

 

[Tempest II]

This is from Saab Gripen, Sweden's 21 st Century Multi-role Aircraft and there was no 2-seater for nearly a decade