F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[sancho]

My take is this, scrap the J-10 deal, its not worth the time and get involved in one of the 5th generation projects with either chengdu or Shenyang even if we don't have much to contribute...

...1) Alot of technology will make its way to JF-17 making it a true 4.5th generation fighter
2) We will be able to induct a 5th generation fighter by 2020, meaning much quicker then our Indian counterparts giving us the edge we have lost for so long now.

I agree with you on the earlier, but since around 40 x J10s won't make a big difference and JF 17 has good upgrade potential too. However, the latter is a bit too far fetched, especially since it needs a lot of money and know how to develop a 5th gen fighter with real 5th gen capabilities and JF 17 currently is just a basic 4th platform. Joining China on such a development would be the best for PAF/Pakistan, but it won't be on the same level as for JF 17, because it would be way more costly development, the numbers that PAF can procure and operate will be way lower, the technical contribution is more limited too. PAF/Pakistan would be more dependent on what China offers in terms of industrial advantages or participation, but the gain of experience and know how might still be worth it.

 

[SQ8]

I agree with you on the earlier, but since around 40 x J10s won't make a big difference and JF 17 has good upgrade potential too. However, the latter is a bit too far fetched, especially since it needs a lot of money and know how to develop a 5th gen fighter with real 5th gen capabilities and JF 17 currently is just a basic 4th platform. Joining China on such a development would be the best for PAF/Pakistan, but it won't be on the same level as for JF 17, because it would be way more costly development, the numbers that PAF can procure and operate will be way lower, the technical contribution is more limited too. PAF/Pakistan would be more dependent on what China offers in terms of industrial advantages or participation, but the gain of experience and know how might still be worth it.

You would be surprised to know , that many of the features built into the JF-17.. such as the DSI intakes, LERX size increase etc.. Had a lot of CAE graduate contribution. the question is of industrial fabrication..
Testing of RCS , composite manufacturing etc..

Pakistan has no lack of design and testing ability.. what it lacks is a manufacturing base.

 

[rockstarIN]

You would be surprised to know , that many of the features built into the JF-17.. such as the DSI intakes, LERX size increase etc.. Had a lot of CAE graduate contribution. the question is of industrial fabrication..
Testing of RCS , composite manufacturing etc..

Pakistan has no lack of design and testing ability.. what it lacks is a manufacturing base.

He mean to say about a 5th Gen fighter, not about JF-17.

Do PAC have wind tunnel, thunder strike testing facilities?

 

[IceCold]

I agree with you on the earlier, but since around 40 x J10s won't make a big difference and JF 17 has good upgrade potential too. However, the latter is a bit too far fetched, especially since it needs a lot of money and know how to develop a 5th gen fighter with real 5th gen capabilities and JF 17 currently is just a basic 4th platform. Joining China on such a development would be the best for PAF/Pakistan, but it won't be on the same level as for JF 17, because it would be way more costly development, the numbers that PAF can procure and operate will be way lower, the technical contribution is more limited too. PAF/Pakistan would be more dependent on what China offers in terms of industrial advantages or participation, but the gain of experience and know how might still be worth it.

In another thread i did mention if we had better economy. You might want to call me far fetched but i am more of a optimistic then far fetched. With elections around the corner, and hopefully a new government in place, i am expecting our economy to recover.
China has developed some extensive knowledge and Industrial infrastructure with J-20, definitely we will be dependent on that but again it also depends upon how much money can we pour in considering both Chendu and Shenyang have two independent projects going on and PAF is already working at Chengdu. Considering the present scenario things don't see rosy but like i said i am optimistic to see our economy back on track and hence by original time frame.
We can't play the numbers game here, but the presence of a 5th generation fighter jet in PAF alone may i add is enough to shift the balance of power in our favor till the time India can inducts PAKFA.

May i also add that we don't need 5th generation vis-via India alone, there is another hostility brewing up but thats another topic for another thread.

 

[SQ8]

He mean to say about a 5th Gen fighter, not about JF-17.

Do PAC have wind tunnel, thunder strike testing facilities?

Yes.. for flow models.

the Thunderstrike, Fatigue test facilities exist at chengdu which the joint team of JF-17 has access to.

ANd yes.. I referred to a 5th gen fighter too.
The design ability for such an aircraft exists too.. to a large extent.
You must understand.. that there are not just local graduates sitting at the PAC.
Graduates from the UK(cranfield etc) , US(Embry Riddle) and all across the globe sit there..
These people have the qualification and the education in distinct important fields to contribute and teach to local students.
So the knowledge base exists..
for eg.. A very detailed study on RAM coatings has been carried out by Pakistan back in the late 90's.. and tested in a modified operational aircraft against multiple radars ,and was found to have worked out pretty well.
So the knowledge base exists.. what these skills demand are funds to procure even more equipment and material.. which does not exist. So the next best thing..i.e to "borrow" Chinese facilities for such tasks is carried out.

 

[sancho]

You would be surprised to know , that many of the features built into the JF-17

No I am not, but those are for a 4th gen fighter and these features are not 5th gen features or techs, that's why I said that the contribution to such a proect at the current stage would be far more limited.
Stealth design, materials, coatings, NG avionics, radar and weapons, let alone NG engines all fields necessary for such a development and even China and India are struggling at these indigenous developments.

 

[SBD-3]

Knowledge my friend. Most of the tech will be existing already being developed for J-20 but i am talking about the same principle on which the J-10 is being used as a test bed for J-20 and the amount of tech that will make its way from J-20 to J-10.

But then again, when the stock of knowledge already exists, it would be like reinventing the wheel when you have a wheel factory in your neighbourhood. This would be true had PAF selected to go with its own (which is still mastering the production of 4th gen).

 

[graphican]

There is no point to comment on photo shopped images.

Ambitious members are merely trying to discuss a future need and its fulfillment option instead of a Photoshop image.

 

[SQ8]

No I am not, but those are for a 4th gen fighter and these features are not 5th gen features or techs, that's why I said that the contribution to such a proect at the current stage would be far more limited.
Stealth design, materials, coatings, NG avionics, radar and weapons, let alone NG engines all fields necessary for such a development and even China and India are struggling at these indigenous developments.

However, that does not limit Pakistan contribution entirely..
Again.. the issue is of manufacturing base... To learn and research about 5th gen tech you need an experimental infrastuructre .. a research culture..

That does not exist at such a level in Pakistan.. many a brilliant engineers and scientist have left these halls for greener pastures due to frustration. There is still a lot more than goes on at AMC which is not even away

 

[Beast]

I agree, scrap the J-10 deal and go for F-60 one. PAF is clever. They probably don't want the J-10B deal. Which is the reason why nothing is finalise yet over J-10 for PAF.

F-60 offer far superior upgrade if inducted into PAF service.

 

[SamranAli]

what we need is better economy and fund, dont worry about tech, we have knowldge base and chinies experience too.

I agree, scrap the J-10 deal and go for F-60 one. PAF is clever. They probably don't want the J-10B deal. Which is the reason why nothing is finalise yet over J-10 for PAF.

F-60 offer far superior upgrade if inducted into PAF service.

I agree with you, PAF should go for F-60.

 

[Imran Khan]

this will be really great man if we have 40 of these one thing i am sure it is not a secret for PAF china must already inform them abut future programs

 

[mosu]

i am wating for to see these birds in PAF colours

 

[TaimiKhan]

I believe PAf will stick with whatever Chengdu is going to produce, don't think they will go with a SAC design, Both JF-17 & J-10 are from Chengdu, an J-20 is also from Chengdu, with the level of confidence and relationship we have made with Chengdu, don't think PAF will go somewhere else.

And i still believe PAF will opt for a single engine stealth platform, twin engine seems not the case.

 

[Imran Khan]

I believe PAf will stick with whatever Chengdu is going to produce, don't think they will go with a SAC design, Both JF-17 & J-10 are from Chengdu, an J-20 is also from Chengdu, with the level of confidence and relationship we have made with Chengdu, don't think PAF will go somewhere else.

And i still believe PAF will opt for a single engine stealth platform, twin engine seems not the case.

its not same chines gov owned ? then why should we stick in one and leave other? if F-60 is best for us and low cost then J-20 why not go with it ?