F-35 myths and facts

[Kamil_baku]

This extra 5 km does make the difference to degrade it % to hit @Kamil_baku

you can use BVR at this range because BVR suddenly become fire and forget, meaning after launch it activates it radar seeker and launch jet will turn away @Kamil_baku

Do you even know how these missiles work? you can tell these in BVR missiles, as you might fire the missile with active radar seeker, to meet the enemy aircraft 70-90 km away, but when the missile arrive there, as it has way smaller radar and coverage, the enemy aircraft might not be in the coverage area of that missile..
Contrary,

No idea what is laser beam missile. F-16 has only AIM-9 and AIM-120 + radar. The only way to shoot a plane from 30 km is
1) Detect and truck target with radar.
2) Use AIM-120.

And even if you use AIM-9 from 10 km u still need to use radar. So its BVR combat.

Start of the 21st century missiles such as the ASRAAM use an "imaging infrared" seeker which "sees" the target (much like a digital video camera), and can distinguish between an aircraft and a point heat source such as a flare. They also feature a very wide detection angle, so the attacking aircraft does not have to be pointing straight at the target for the missile to lock on. The pilot can use a helmet mounted sight (HMS) and target another aircraft by looking at it, and then firing. This is called "off-boresight" launch. For example, the Russian Su-27 is equipped with an infra-red search and track (IRST) system with laser rangefinder for its HMS-aimed missiles.

Seems like i deal with bunch of Kids that who has no idea but big mouth.. if you have no clue about aviation, you better just be silent and listen.. highly recommended..

Those designed to engage opposing aircraft at ranges of less than 30 km are known as short-range or "within visual range" missiles (SRAAMs or WVRAAMs) and are sometimes called "dogfight" missiles because they are designed to optimize their agility rather than range. Most use infrared guidance and are called heat-seeking missiles. In contrast, medium- or long-range missiles (MRAAMs or LRAAMs), which both fall under the category of beyond visual range missiles (BVRAAMs), tend to rely upon radar guidance, of which there are many forms. Some modern ones use inertial guidance and/or "mid-course updates" to get the missile close enough to use an active homing sensor.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Do you even know how these missiles work? you can tell these in BVR missiles, as you might fire the missile with active radar seeker, to meet the enemy aircraft 70-90 km away, but when the missile arrive there, as it has way smaller radar and coverage, the enemy aircraft might not be in the coverage area of that missile..
Contrary,

At 70-90 km launch jet will update target position via mid flight data link @Kamil_baku but at 30 km data links is not needed @Kamil_baku

 

[Kamil_baku]

At 70-90 km launch jet will update target position via mid flight data link @Kamil_baku but at 30 km data links is not needed @Kamil_baku

not jet but Awacs or some other aircraft will probably do it as the jet will be target itself at that case...
On the other hand. which is most used, other than Meteor, all other BVR missiles will have issues that the target aircraft might run away and make the propulsion of missile run away and not reach the target..
However, if you get targeted with WVR missile within its range, it will take only 20-25 seconds to heat you max.. what makes the probability low is the timing of Pilots when to maneuver when those missiles come with 1300 meter second.

 

[Ultima Thule]

not jet but Awacs or some other aircraft will probably do it as the jet will be target itself at that case...
On the other hand. which is most used, other than Meteor, all other BVR missiles will have issues that the target aircraft might run away and make the propulsion of missile run away and not reach the target..
However, if you get targeted with WVR missile within its range, it will take only 20-25 seconds to heat you max.. what makes the probability low is the timing of Pilots when to maneuver when those missiles come with 1300 meter second.

Not AWACS or but some other means but first option is launch jet and off course BVR can be guided by AWACS, and you're talking about no escape zone, if you BVR has range of let say 100 km you wont firing at these range because no escape zone doubts you're firing your missile at range of 70-80 range margin to compensate no escape zone, as maneuverability/agility of a missile pilots stand no chance against missiles either its BVR or WVR missile it maneuvering at 40-50 gs whereas pilots can sustain only 9 gs at best only defense against inbound BVR,WVR missiles is to Electronic warefare and Chaff and flares @Kamil_baku

 

[500]

Do you even know how these missiles work? you can tell these in BVR missiles, as you might fire the missile with active radar seeker, to meet the enemy aircraft 70-90 km away, but when the missile arrive there, as it has way smaller radar and coverage, the enemy aircraft might not be in the coverage area of that missile..
Contrary,


Start of the 21st century missiles such as the ASRAAM use an "imaging infrared" seeker which "sees" the target (much like a digital video camera), and can distinguish between an aircraft and a point heat source such as a flare. They also feature a very wide detection angle, so the attacking aircraft does not have to be pointing straight at the target for the missile to lock on. The pilot can use a helmet mounted sight (HMS) and target another aircraft by looking at it, and then firing. This is called "off-boresight" launch. For example, the Russian Su-27 is equipped with an infra-red search and track (IRST) system with laser rangefinder for its HMS-aimed missiles.

1) In order to use HMS you need to see a target. You can't see a target from 30 km.
2) F-16 does not have an IRST.
3) Range of laser range finder is limited to about 20 km in very good weather conditions. In bad weather - much lower.
4) If you ise IRST to guide missile its not a visual range battle. It's BVR, you just replace replace radar with IRST.
5) The range of heat seeking missiles is limited to 20-25 km in ideal conditions - very high altitude not maneuvering target. In typical conditions (3-6 km altitude and maneuvering target it would be limited to about 5 km).

Welcome to real world.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Not AWACS or but some other means but first otion is launch jet and off course BVR can be guided by AWACS, and you're talking about no escape zone, if you BVR has range of let say 100 km you wont firing at these range because no escape zone doubts you're firing your missile at range of 70-80 range margin to compensate no escape zone, as maneuverability/agility of a missile pilots stand no chance against missiles either its BVR or WVR missile it maneuvering at 40-50 gs whereas pilots can sustain only 9 gs at best only defense against inbound BVR,WVR missiles is to Electronic warefare and Chaff and flares @Kamil_baku

you dont understand that looking at it from 9 g and 60G difference is wrong. As these missile has

1) In order to use HMS you need to see a target. You can't see a target from 30 km.
2) F-16 does not have an IRST.
3) Range of laser range finder is limited to about 20 km in very good weather conditions. In bad weather - much lower.
4) If you ise IRST to guide missile its not a visual range battle. It's BVR, you just replace replace radar with IRST.
5) The range of heat seeking missiles is limited to 20-25 km in ideal conditions - very high altitude not maneuvering target. In typical conditions (3-6 km altitude and maneuvering target it would be limited to about 5 km).

Welcome to real world.

1) You can see the Target with Thermal imaging sensor easily from 30km away Kid..
2) Who the hell told you that F16 is using IRIS-T? we talk about BVR missiles and it is part of it.. Seems like thats the best word you found to run away..
3) Russians use that and it simply says that 30 km, the thing is what you try to change, 30 km is HELL no BVR range..
Those designed to engage opposing aircraft at ranges of less than 30 km are known as short-range or "within visual range" missiles (SRAAMs or WVRAAMs) and are sometimes called "dogfight" missiles because they are designed to optimize their agility rather than range
4) Those designed to engage opposing aircraft at ranges of less than 30 km are known as short-range or "within visual range" missiles (SRAAMs or WVRAAMs) and are sometimes called "dogfight" missiles because they are designed to optimize their agility rather than range
It is BVR because it is designed to have much maneuver that range.. in your dreams, thats another thing,,
5) So you accept that 25 km is WVR right? just dont be shy, say it openly...

Not AWACS or but some other means but first option is launch jet and off course BVR can be guided by AWACS, and you're talking about no escape zone, if you BVR has range of let say 100 km you wont firing at these range because no escape zone doubts you're firing your missile at range of 70-80 range margin to compensate no escape zone, as maneuverability/agility of a missile pilots stand no chance against missiles either its BVR or WVR missile it maneuvering at 40-50 gs whereas pilots can sustain only 9 gs at best only defense against inbound BVR,WVR missiles is to Electronic warefare and Chaff and flares @Kamil_baku

As i said, i am just dealing with bunch of kids here... why dont you be silent about things you have no idea?

First reason is that missile cannot turn tighter than the aircraft: in order to pull as tight turn as a fighter aircraft, missile has to pull amount of g that is amount of g’s aircraft can pull multiplied by factor of difference in speed squared. For example, Typhoon can pull 9 g at 360 kts, and IRIS-T can pull 60 g at Mach 3, or 1.984 knots. What this means is that IRIS-T will have 4,5 times as wide turn diameter. If target is pulling 9 g at Mach 0,9, then IRIS-T will still have 1,7 times as wide turn diameter, and if target is pulling sustained 5 g turn at 360 kts, IRIS-T will have 2,5 times as wide turn diameter.

 

[500]

1) You can see the Target with Thermal imaging sensor easily from 30km away Kid..

In some cases you can see the target with thermals from 100 km. Does it mean that 100 km is WVR? And whats the kid thing? I talked to u respectfully.

2) Who the hell told you that F16 is using IRIS-T? we talk about BVR missiles and it is part of it.. Seems like thats the best word you found to run away..

I gave u F-16 as example. The only way to hit a target from 30 km with F-16 is to use radar and AIM-120. Yet you are telling me that 30 km is WVR.

Actually any plane in the world will need a radar to hit a target from 30 km.

3) Russians use that and it simply says that 30 km, the thing is what you try to change, 30 km is HELL no BVR range..

IRST of Su-35 can measure range to aerial target at 20 km:
https://vpk.name/library/f/ols-35.html

Obviously the IRST of Su-27 is much weaker.

Those designed to engage opposing aircraft at ranges of less than 30 km are known as short-range or "within visual range" missiles (SRAAMs or WVRAAMs) and are sometimes called "dogfight" missiles because they are designed to optimize their agility rather than range
4) Those designed to engage opposing aircraft at ranges of less than 30 km are known as short-range or "within visual range" missiles (SRAAMs or WVRAAMs) and are sometimes called "dogfight" missiles because they are designed to optimize their agility rather than range
It is BVR because it is designed to have much maneuver that range.. in your dreams, thats another thing,,

I explained to u. At typical altitude vs maneuvering target the range of SRAAM will drop to about 5 km.

5) So you accept that 25 km is WVR right? just dont be shy, say it openly...

WVR is something u can see with ur own eyes - 10 km at most.

 

[Ultima Thule]

you dont understand that looking at it from 9 g and 60G difference is wrong. As these missile has

the difference between 9 gs for the pilots, and 4-50 gs for missiles are absolutely right, you forget 5th gen with WVR missiles that can maneuver themselves 90 degrees to the target behind the launch jet @Kamil_baku
first high off bore sight missile of the world is R-73 which can sustain 40 gs after upgrade it can sustain 60 gs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-73_(missile)
and all 5th gen WVR missiles like ASRAAM, IRIS-T AIM-9X,A-darter can maneuver 50-60 gs @Kamil_baku
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRAAM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-9_Sidewinder#AIM-9X
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-Darter


as for BVR they can also maneuver 30-40 gs @Kamil_baku

As i said, i am just dealing with bunch of kids here... why dont you be silent about things you have no idea?

First reason is that missile cannot turn tighter than the aircraft: in order to pull as tight turn as a fighter aircraft, missile has to pull amount of g that is amount of g’s aircraft can pull multiplied by factor of difference in speed squared. For example, Typhoon can pull 9 g at 360 kts, and IRIS-T can pull 60 g at Mach 3, or 1.984 knots. What this means is that IRIS-T will have 4,5 times as wide turn diameter. If target is pulling 9 g at Mach 0,9, then IRIS-T will still have 1,7 times as wide turn diameter, and if target is pulling sustained 5 g turn at 360 kts, IRIS-T will have 2,5 times as wide turn diameter.

You're the kid not is WVRAAM missiles manufacturers are stupid lot of 5th gen WVRRAM using to TVC to compensate this problems and WVRAAM can maneuver itself to compensate speed difference as they launch @Kamil_baku

 

[Kamil_baku]

I appreciate your respectful stance, i take my word back about kid..

anyway, i just realize that it turned to a simple comparison as this distance is BVR or WVR.. i will not answer after this point.. im out to vacation..

 

[500]

5) F-35 is too slow

Partially true.

* In fighter configuration F-35 with 1.6 Mach speed is indeed slower than virtually all 4 gen fighters (only JF-17 has same speed).
* On the other hand in bomber configuration F-35 has same 1.6 Mach and is actually the fastest of all (while conventional fighters with pods and bombs will barely reach 1.2-1.3 Mach).
* Maximum speed does not really matter in actual warfare. That's why Mirage 2000 with 2.2 Mach max speed is replaced by Rafale with 1.8 Mach max speed.

Some interesting info on speeds regarding previous wars:

Northrop F-5 Case Study in Aircraft Design. Page 66 (1978). doi:10.2514/4.868696

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/Air-to-Air-Report-.pdf

 

[Mithridates]

Some interesting info on speeds regarding previous wars:

View attachment 664910

Northrop F-5 Case Study in Aircraft Design. Page 66 (1978). doi:10.2514/4.868696


View attachment 664909

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/Air-to-Air-Report-.pdf

are you sure the table is about f-5?? i mean sparrow missile...Northrop f-5...

 

[Metal 0-1]

F-35 canon can't shoot straight. It still isn't enough to replace A-10s for CAS role..
A-10 is better.