F-35 meets J-20 over South China Sea

[CAPRICORN-88]

sell your propaganda elsewhere

And kindly keep yours to yourself.

 

[Han Patriot]

I do not need to take lessons on how the PLAAF operate from someone who never served.

Hahahaha, it means you know jackshit and just type tonnes of rubbish to make yourself look smart.

J-20s' alleged close contact with F-35s over E.China Sea 'countermeasures against US activities

By
Liu Xuanzun
and Guo Yuandan
Published: Mar 17, 2022

A top US Air Force general said that US F-35 stealth fighter jets recently had a close contact with China's J-20 stealth fighter jets over the East China Sea, and the US forces are "impressed" by them.

If the incident is true, it is likely that the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force sortied the J-20s to counter the possibly provocative activities by the US F-35s near China as part of routine maritime management and control missions, Chinese analysts said on Thursday.

"We recently had - I wouldn't call it an engagement - where we got relatively close to the J-20s along with our F-35s in the East China Sea, and we're relatively impressed with the command and control that was associated with the J-20," General Kenneth Wilsbach, Commander of the US Pacific Air Forces, said in an online discussion event on YouTube on Tuesday.

Noting that the Chinese pilots "are flying the J-20s pretty well," Wilsbach said that the US is still trying to figure out whether the J-20 is more like an F-35 that is capable of carrying out multiple types of missions, or more like an F-22 that is primarily an air superiority fighter that has an air-to-ground capability.

Wilsbach also said China's KJ-500 early warning aircraft could guide very-long-range air-to-air missiles carried by other aircraft to hit targets very far away.

While the PLA Air Force has not confirmed Wilsbach's remarks as of press time, Wang Li, a J-20 pilot at the Wang Hai Air Group affiliated with the PLA Eastern Theater Command Air Force, said on China Central Television on March 5 that he had participated in routine maritime management and control missions with the J-20, meaning that it is indeed possible that the J-20 could have appeared over the East China Sea.

The background of such incident is likely that the US Air Force was carrying out an attack simulation or other kinds of exercises targeting China, Hu Bo, director of the South China Sea Strategic Situation Probing Initiative (SCSPI), a Beijing-based think tank, told the Global Times on Thursday.

It seems that Wilsbach was praising the J-20's performance, but what he did was actually showing off US' capabilities in the East China Sea, Hu said.

The PLA, on the other hand, must have grasped the US activities, Hu said, noting that the contact by both sides' most advanced fighter jets indicates that the competition between them is growing even stronger.

Judging from the remarks by the US general and the Chinese pilot, it is likely that the US F-35s first entered China's East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone and were picked up by PLA early warning systems, thanks to technologies like China's world-leading anti-stealth radars, a Chinese military expert told the Global Times on Thursday, requesting anonymity.

Upon detection, the PLA Air Force sortied the J-20s as part of their routine maritime management and control missions, the expert said, noting that since the US sent the stealth-capable F-35s, China needed to deploy aircraft with equivalent or better capabilities, which are the J-20s.

This serves as a countermeasure to US' possibly provocative activities, as the Chinese aircraft could monitor the US aircraft and ask them to leave if they come too close to Chinese territorial airspace, the expert said.

No oooo, gambit think we fleww to Okinawa.lolol. So essentially their trillion dollar plane is now washed down the drain. It's bad enough to detect it, but PLA actually intercepted it. Thats what that is shocking and the American making such a big news out of it means they were shocked of it as well.

 

[Wood]

Judging from the remarks by the US general and the Chinese pilot, it is likely that the US F-35s first entered China's East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone and were picked up by PLA early warning systems, thanks to technologies like China's world-leading anti-stealth radars, a Chinese military expert told the Global Times on Thursday, requesting anonymity.

It would be interesting to know at what distance was the F-35 detection made. Was F-35 within the standoff weapon distance with the radar at that time?

It would also be interesting to see if J-20 was using some anti stealth configuration when F-35 detected it

 

[tphuang]

I meant to say nothing. I do not know why you guys insists on interpreting the vaguest of text. I am waiting for an explanation of how China detected the F-35 based upon that article.


So according to your extensive personal experience in military aviation, the J-20 usually flies at max ceiling all the time. I guess now we have 'Malaysian physics' along with 'Chinese physics'.

Detecting F-35 is not particular difficult actually. With anti-stealth radar, they can detect general direction of F-35 from probably 200 km out. F-35 has certain stealth issues on the sides and definitely in the rear. After some time away home base and on long deployment at sea, the stealth layer also declines a little bit. Now, anti-stealth radar generally isn't accurate enough to guide missiles, so do need to actually scramble jet in that direction to track F-35. Locking onto F-35 with X-band fighter jet radar is a lot harder. But nowadays, any stealth aircraft would have to deal with modern AESA radar that can scan narrow beam, EO trackers and advanced passive sensors that can intercept emissions. And there will be many such assets in the theater. With data fusion and networking, modern defenses can lock on to F-35s at reasonable range.

Keep in mind, this is not just one sided. The commander that made the statement also said that E-3s can't track J-20 at useful, but E-7s can. Part of what helps E-7 is using L band radar. Again, the way to beat stealth is wide band radar and data fusion. Right now, it seems to me that only US and China have such ability. More countries will acquire them in the future.

 

[huanghong]

E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief​

E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief

US Air Force (USAF) General Kenneth Wilsbach says that the Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet is suffering significant obsolescence issues, and that the Boeing F-15EX is ideally suited to conflict in North Asia.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[huanghong]

The j-20 should always have the Luneberg lens open, which means that the e-3 can't find the j-20 with the Luneberg len open in time?

E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief​

E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief

US Air Force (USAF) General Kenneth Wilsbach says that the Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet is suffering significant obsolescence issues, and that the Boeing F-15EX is ideally suited to conflict in North Asia.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[gambit]

Detecting F-35 is not particular difficult actually. With anti-stealth radar, they can detect general direction of F-35 from probably 200 km out. F-35 has certain stealth issues on the sides and definitely in the rear. After some time away home base and on long deployment at sea, the stealth layer also declines a little bit. Now, anti-stealth radar generally isn't accurate enough to guide missiles, so do need to actually scramble jet in that direction to track F-35. Locking onto F-35 with X-band fighter jet radar is a lot harder. But nowadays, any stealth aircraft would have to deal with modern AESA radar that can scan narrow beam, EO trackers and advanced passive sensors that can intercept emissions. And there will be many such assets in the theater. With data fusion and networking, modern defenses can lock on to F-35s at reasonable range.

Keep in mind, this is not just one sided. The commander that made the statement also said that E-3s can't track J-20 at useful, but E-7s can. Part of what helps E-7 is using L band radar. Again, the way to beat stealth is wide band radar and data fusion. Right now, it seems to me that only US and China have such ability. More countries will acquire them in the future.

What is loosely called 'anti-stealth' radar is technically 'non-cooperative target detection techniques'.

Most targets reflects and let the reflected signals go anywhere in any mode, so from the seeking radar's perspective, that make you cooperative. But a body that was deliberately designed to control some directions and some modes of radiation, aka low radar observability, make you non-cooperative. So alternate detection techniques must be created.

Long wavelengths, backscatter, bi/multi static, or just plain old sheer power output. Use singularly, each method would amplify one target characteristic. Use in combinations, the odds of successfully correlating multiple target characteristics increases, which translates to confirmation that there is something out there. But the problem with using multiple techniques is that it increases physical complexity as well as data processing complexity. Long wavelengths requires large arrays which cannot exists on a 'fighter' size platform. Backscatter requires multiple arrays and that the target must be in an ideal spatial position, with some allowable margins in the three axes, of course. But no matter which, the more complex the technique, the less likely that technique will be airborne, which put the combat tactical advantage back to the F-22, F-35, B-2, and the coming B-21.

When I was active duty and on the F-16, I have seen what an F-16 configured for air-air can do at low level ingress. That mean the jet had two external fuels and a bunch of missiles. I have seen the jet blinked or essentially disappeared off the AWACS scope. So you may want to rethink the idea that detecting the F-35 is not difficult under a combat environment. Not on paper.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

It would be interesting to know at what distance was the F-35 detection made. Was F-35 within the standoff weapon distance with the radar at that time?

It would also be interesting to see if J-20 was using some anti stealth configuration when F-35 detected it

If it was true, the immediate question Is: was the F-35 pilot even aware of the presence of J-20 when it happened.

What makes the US General so impressed?

The PLAAF flying or the stealthiness of the J-20? The question will remains.

Only the USAF knows the real answer.

Why did USAF suddenly says that its E-3 is useless against FGFA?

Surely it can't be talking about their own F-35 since E-3 was deployed at that moment.

 

[tphuang]

What is loosely called 'anti-stealth' radar is technically 'non-cooperative target detection techniques'.

Most targets reflects and let the reflected signals go anywhere in any mode, so from the seeking radar's perspective, that make you cooperative. But a body that was deliberately designed to control some directions and some modes of radiation, aka low radar observability, make you non-cooperative. So alternate detection techniques must be created.

Long wavelengths, backscatter, bi/multi static, or just plain old sheer power output. Use singularly, each method would amplify one target characteristic. Use in combinations, the odds of successfully correlating multiple target characteristics increases, which translates to confirmation that there is something out there. But the problem with using multiple techniques is that it increases physical complexity as well as data processing complexity. Long wavelengths requires large arrays which cannot exists on a 'fighter' size platform. Backscatter requires multiple arrays and that the target must be in an ideal spatial position, with some allowable margins in the three axes, of course. But no matter which, the more complex the technique, the less likely that technique will be airborne, which put the combat tactical advantage back to the F-22, F-35, B-2, and the coming B-21.

When I was active duty and on the F-16, I have seen what an F-16 configured for air-air can do at low level ingress. That mean the jet had two external fuels and a bunch of missiles. I have seen the jet blinked or essentially disappeared off the AWACS scope. So you may want to rethink the idea that detecting the F-35 is not difficult under a combat environment. Not on paper.

I can't disagree with any of that. However, I guess you have not heard of the Divine Eagle UAV.

UAV/UCAV II

China Air Force

chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com

Just the first generation of this type of airborne anti-stealth platform. In the future, you are going to have UAVs which will more or less be long wings that carry conformal radar antenna. Even if you just have long wavelengths radar giving low quality positioning data to other platforms, you can now beam on them with AESA radar or E/O tracker focusing on narrow search band. If an X band radar normally has 200 km tracking range vs 1 sqm target. Searching in a narrowband, that might be as high as 400 km against the same target. And if you pass that info to a large L band AWACS, it would also be able to find a stealth aircraft at longer range.

 

[serenity]

You can use lots of networked and fused radar systems to create anti-stealth with firing solution but it requires lots and lots of assets "cooperating" and this is immensely hard to pull off in war time and you got to protect and sustain them. We don't know how well all that works at all but it could be useful to completely hopeless in real life engagement.

But saying it's just L band to track stealth is really simplifying this too much.

As for the incident, let's not read too much into it since neither side provided many details that are very important even to guess at things.

 

[Song Hong]

There are many techniques to detect stealth planes. You can use a VHF radar and infrared sensing. Both have their inherent problem resulting to bad spacial resolution and lousy detection radius. But you will know a stealth planes is there.

Many people think VHF radar can never be mount on aircraft due to antenna length requirement. Not true. You can make a smaller antenna and you sacrifice efficiency.

Big problem of VHF is it has bad spacial resolution. So you can only get a rough feel.

With sensor fusion using multiple sensor + AI + algorithm, you get a quite good situation awareness.

THese are military secret you dont get to see in magazines and newspaper. Not too many countries have such stuff.

 

[gambit]

Many people think VHF radar can never be mount on aircraft due to antenna length requirement. Not true. You can make a smaller antenna and you sacrifice efficiency.

Fine, I will take the bait. It is not 'antenna length' and what kind of 'efficiency' sacrifice are you talking about?

 

[Song Hong]

Fine, I will take the bait. It is not 'antenna length' and what kind of 'efficiency' sacrifice are you talking about?

In Electro-magnetics, the antenna length is proportional to the wavelength or inversely proportional to frequency.

The parabola, horn follows the same principle also.

You can have something smaller at the expense of antenna gain.

 

[LeGenD]

J-20s' alleged close contact with F-35s over E.China Sea 'countermeasures against US activities

By
Liu Xuanzun
and Guo Yuandan
Published: Mar 17, 2022

A top US Air Force general said that US F-35 stealth fighter jets recently had a close contact with China's J-20 stealth fighter jets over the East China Sea, and the US forces are "impressed" by them.

If the incident is true, it is likely that the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force sortied the J-20s to counter the possibly provocative activities by the US F-35s near China as part of routine maritime management and control missions, Chinese analysts said on Thursday.

"We recently had - I wouldn't call it an engagement - where we got relatively close to the J-20s along with our F-35s in the East China Sea, and we're relatively impressed with the command and control that was associated with the J-20," General Kenneth Wilsbach, Commander of the US Pacific Air Forces, said in an online discussion event on YouTube on Tuesday.

Noting that the Chinese pilots "are flying the J-20s pretty well," Wilsbach said that the US is still trying to figure out whether the J-20 is more like an F-35 that is capable of carrying out multiple types of missions, or more like an F-22 that is primarily an air superiority fighter that has an air-to-ground capability.

Wilsbach also said China's KJ-500 early warning aircraft could guide very-long-range air-to-air missiles carried by other aircraft to hit targets very far away.

While the PLA Air Force has not confirmed Wilsbach's remarks as of press time, Wang Li, a J-20 pilot at the Wang Hai Air Group affiliated with the PLA Eastern Theater Command Air Force, said on China Central Television on March 5 that he had participated in routine maritime management and control missions with the J-20, meaning that it is indeed possible that the J-20 could have appeared over the East China Sea.

The background of such incident is likely that the US Air Force was carrying out an attack simulation or other kinds of exercises targeting China, Hu Bo, director of the South China Sea Strategic Situation Probing Initiative (SCSPI), a Beijing-based think tank, told the Global Times on Thursday.

It seems that Wilsbach was praising the J-20's performance, but what he did was actually showing off US' capabilities in the East China Sea, Hu said.

The PLA, on the other hand, must have grasped the US activities, Hu said, noting that the contact by both sides' most advanced fighter jets indicates that the competition between them is growing even stronger.

Judging from the remarks by the US general and the Chinese pilot, it is likely that the US F-35s first entered China's East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone and were picked up by PLA early warning systems, thanks to technologies like China's world-leading anti-stealth radars, a Chinese military expert told the Global Times on Thursday, requesting anonymity.

Upon detection, the PLA Air Force sortied the J-20s as part of their routine maritime management and control missions, the expert said, noting that since the US sent the stealth-capable F-35s, China needed to deploy aircraft with equivalent or better capabilities, which are the J-20s.

This serves as a countermeasure to US' possibly provocative activities, as the Chinese aircraft could monitor the US aircraft and ask them to leave if they come too close to Chinese territorial airspace, the expert said.

J-20s' alleged close contact with F-35s over E.China Sea 'countermeasures against US activities' - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Could be due to use of radar reflectors on F-35. This is standard NATO practice.

This strange mod to the F-35 kills its stealth near Russian defenses — and there's good reason for that

"It's certainly not out of the question to use their newer air-to-air assets as a form of 'operational testing' in the real-world environment."

www.businessinsider.com

For example:

U.S. Air Force's F-35A Jets With Radar Reflectors And External AIM-9X Missiles Carry Out First Airstrikes In Iraq

Photos of the U.S. Air Force F-35A Lightning II aircraft involved in an airstrike at Wadi Ashai, Iraq, show a really interesting configuration. Two U.S.

theaviationist.com

 

[gambit]

In Electro-magnetics, the antenna length is proportional to the wavelength or inversely proportional to frequency.

The parabola, horn follows the same principle also.

You can have something smaller at the expense of antenna gain.


View attachment 825458

Not interested in text book information. Am interested in practical application, specifically, usage against a low radar observable body. While it is technically true that you can install any antenna array of any dimension you want, that would be contrary to practical applications because an aircraft have limited volume everywhere. That is why the X-band is the common freq band for most applications.

You have one more chance before I expose your ignorance.