F-35 meets J-20 over South China Sea

[Oldman1]

I’m sorry guys, I believe got too excited with the news and posted pics directly via my phone without verification. My bad.

The news that F35 has come up against the J20 stands though.

Not sure why make a big deal out of it.

 

[MH.Yang]

Spare me the propaganda. Most likely, I am old enough to be your father. I lived thru the time when China was always eager for war. You guys ain't no different than US, pal.

No, we're different.
China depends on Global trade, so we need a peaceful trade environment.
USA is a domestic demand economy. You need to expand domestic demand. War is an important domestic demand.

 

[dbc]

I still believe the J-20 have a higher RCS than the F-22 and F-35. For the second question, this is where I admire the Chinese scientists. Big Brass Balls they have. I bet they clang loudly whenever they walk.

your admiration for Chinese balls not withstanding - the J-20 mission is limited by Chinese deficiencies.

 

[cssniper]

Spare me the propaganda. Most likely, I am old enough to be your father. I lived thru the time when China was always eager for war. You guys ain't no different than US, pal.

You lived for several decades and thought you could accuse an ancient civilization of warmongering.
Your entire country was founded on the corpes of American Indians by the way.

 

[KampfAlwin]

Spare me the propaganda. Most likely, I am old enough to be your father. I lived thru the time when China was always eager for war. You guys ain't no different than US, pal.

Imagine saying that without a hint of irony lmao

 

[tphuang]

I still believe the J-20 have a higher RCS than the F-22 and F-35. For the second question, this is where I admire the Chinese scientists. Big Brass Balls they have. I bet they clang loudly whenever they walk.

The J-20 is supposed to go after US air components that extends US airpower: AWACS and refuelers. The current PLAAF inventory can already do that. When I was a young pup just entered the USAF, our training flight had the treat of meeting a Red Flag and Weapons School veteran, a senior major. There were the inevitable 'ooohss' and 'aaaahhhss'. In the USAF, Red Flag and Weapons School 'Patch' are rock stars. In the USN, it is Top Gun. Anyway, the major was there as part of a motivational tour and showed us an exercise plan that were with and without AWACS/refueler support because some of us would be assigned to either platform, and the AF does not want anyone to feel bad if they did not get assigned to fighter or bomber.

The refueler differences were dramatic. Mission range were 1/2. Sorties were doubled which increased aircrew fatigue which affected bombing range accuracy which increased sorties and so on. Ground crews were also affected because they had to work overtime to turn the jets.

The AWACS differences were equally impacting. There is no denying how fortunate US flyers are with the AWACS crew having that "God's Eye" view of the airspace. Individual four-ship flights can better plan their ingress/egress. Because fighters radars can only look ahead, with AWACS can look all over, aircrews feels better with someone covering their six. The list of what a single AWACS on station can do is amazing and I will not go into the details here.

The Chinese scientists can depart from their dependency on their Russian counterparts with a 'non-stealth' version of the J-20. But they doubled their bets that would impress the dealers at Vegas. They took a defunct Soviet project and what they learned about 'stealth' from the US and created something functional. They left their Soviet/Russian mentors behind and got into the rear view mirrors of the Americans. The J-20 can threaten the US air extensions components and 4th gen platforms, at least on theory for the latter. So overall, I think the J-20 is a credit to the Chinese scientists and can be a formidable threat to US airpower. The problem is whether the PLAAF leadership can use it effectively in light of the fact that the US have decades of using 'stealth' in ways that are still classified.

Keep in mind in that same interview, the Pacific Air Force commander said that E-3C can't detect J-20 at useful range, but believe that E-7 can. That should be a validation of how good J-20's stealth is. It also shows that E-7 with L band radar would have much better success at tracking stealth aircraft than a S band radar (and definitely better than X band radar you normally find on fighter jets)

I think it's entirely reasonable to believe J-20 RCS is higher than F-22/F-35. J-20 does not have all around stealth. It's rear stealth is quite problematic. Probably at least a couple of magnitude higher RCS than F-22 and at least 1 magnitude higher RCS than F-35. It's frontal stealth is quite good. Probably still higher than F-22 and F-35, but very stealthy nonetheless. It's side stealth is more debatable, but I think it's pretty good too. Probably still at least 1 magnitude higher RCS higher than F-22 and probably higher than F-35. I don't know enough about these things to comment further than that.

In terms of battlefields, having higher RCS does not mean you will always lose. In fact, F-15s have much higher RCS than F-16/18s, but I would still prefer F-15s over the other 2. With larger radar/EW suite + better T/W ratio, J-20 can easily overcome RCS disadvantage to F-35. How well they will do against each other depends on what else is in the theater, pilots skills, command & control and other things.

 

[TheSolution]

I still believe the J-20 have a higher RCS than the F-22 and F-35. For the second question, this is where I admire the Chinese scientists. Big Brass Balls they have. I bet they clang loudly whenever they walk.

The J-20 is supposed to go after US air components that extends US airpower: AWACS and refuelers. The current PLAAF inventory can already do that. When I was a young pup just entered the USAF, our training flight had the treat of meeting a Red Flag and Weapons School veteran, a senior major. There were the inevitable 'ooohss' and 'aaaahhhss'. In the USAF, Red Flag and Weapons School 'Patch' are rock stars. In the USN, it is Top Gun. Anyway, the major was there as part of a motivational tour and showed us an exercise plan that were with and without AWACS/refueler support because some of us would be assigned to either platform, and the AF does not want anyone to feel bad if they did not get assigned to fighter or bomber.

The refueler differences were dramatic. Mission range were 1/2. Sorties were doubled which increased aircrew fatigue which affected bombing range accuracy which increased sorties and so on. Ground crews were also affected because they had to work overtime to turn the jets.

The AWACS differences were equally impacting. There is no denying how fortunate US flyers are with the AWACS crew having that "God's Eye" view of the airspace. Individual four-ship flights can better plan their ingress/egress. Because fighters radars can only look ahead, with AWACS can look all over, aircrews feels better with someone covering their six. The list of what a single AWACS on station can do is amazing and I will not go into the details here.

The Chinese scientists can depart from their dependency on their Russian counterparts with a 'non-stealth' version of the J-20. But they doubled their bets that would impress the dealers at Vegas. They took a defunct Soviet project and what they learned about 'stealth' from the US and created something functional. They left their Soviet/Russian mentors behind and got into the rear view mirrors of the Americans. The J-20 can threaten the US air extensions components and 4th gen platforms, at least on theory for the latter. So overall, I think the J-20 is a credit to the Chinese scientists and can be a formidable threat to US airpower. The problem is whether the PLAAF leadership can use it effectively in light of the fact that the US have decades of using 'stealth' in ways that are still classified.

Have you ever flown with the PAF?

 

[gambit]

Have you ever flown with the PAF?

Our training squadrons at MacDill never had any opportunity. We hosted individuals for training and quals, but not entire unit.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I still believe the J-20 have a higher RCS than the F-22 and F-35. For the second question, this is where I admire the Chinese scientists. Big Brass Balls they have. I bet they clang loudly whenever they walk.

The J-20 is supposed to go after US air components that extends US airpower: AWACS and refuelers. The current PLAAF inventory can already do that. When I was a young pup just entered the USAF, our training flight had the treat of meeting a Red Flag and Weapons School veteran, a senior major. There were the inevitable 'ooohss' and 'aaaahhhss'. In the USAF, Red Flag and Weapons School 'Patch' are rock stars. In the USN, it is Top Gun. Anyway, the major was there as part of a motivational tour and showed us an exercise plan that were with and without AWACS/refueler support because some of us would be assigned to either platform, and the AF does not want anyone to feel bad if they did not get assigned to fighter or bomber.

The refueler differences were dramatic. Mission range were 1/2. Sorties were doubled which increased aircrew fatigue which affected bombing range accuracy which increased sorties and so on. Ground crews were also affected because they had to work overtime to turn the jets.

The AWACS differences were equally impacting. There is no denying how fortunate US flyers are with the AWACS crew having that "God's Eye" view of the airspace. Individual four-ship flights can better plan their ingress/egress. Because fighters radars can only look ahead, with AWACS can look all over, aircrews feels better with someone covering their six. The list of what a single AWACS on station can do is amazing and I will not go into the details here.

The Chinese scientists can depart from their dependency on their Russian counterparts with a 'non-stealth' version of the J-20. But they doubled their bets that would impress the dealers at Vegas. They took a defunct Soviet project and what they learned about 'stealth' from the US and created something functional. They left their Soviet/Russian mentors behind and got into the rear view mirrors of the Americans. The J-20 can threaten the US air extensions components and 4th gen platforms, at least on theory for the latter. So overall, I think the J-20 is a credit to the Chinese scientists and can be a formidable threat to US airpower. The problem is whether the PLAAF leadership can use it effectively in light of the fact that the US have decades of using 'stealth' in ways that are still classified.

Do you not consider the J-20 a formidable threat to your 5th generation platforms?

 

[Song Hong]

Anyone who has worked on RF can easily estimate the RCS of J20 and F35 base on the number of non parallel planes when the aircraft is projected 2D.

I would say RCS of J20 is very good and around the level of F20 or F35 -- not inferior.

The aerodynamics and air to air combat abilities of J20 is higher than fat F35.

 

[CIA Mole]

even if luneberg lens is attached it is still on the bottom correct? (nvm seems f35 has multiple)

approaching either jets closely from side or top would still give valuable rcs information no?

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

I think it's entirely reasonable to believe J-20 RCS is higher than F-22/F-35. J-20 does not have all around stealth. It's rear stealth is quite problematic. Probably at least a couple of magnitude higher RCS than F-22 and at least 1 magnitude higher RCS than F-35. It's frontal stealth is quite good. Probably still higher than F-22 and F-35, but very stealthy nonetheless. It's side stealth is more debatable, but I think it's pretty good too. Probably still at least 1 magnitude higher RCS higher than F-22 and probably higher than F-35. I don't know enough about these things to comment further than that.

Bro, this again?

What is your proof for this?

 

[Song Hong]

The stealth fighter is not something magical of that high tech. You can read it in a lot of radar books. Basically just

1. reduce the number of parallel planes.
2. Use DSI (F22 has no DSI)
3. gold plate cockpit
4. smoothen the aircraft surface (no nails or nuts)
5. Use radar absorbant paint


And stealth technology is optimized only for X Band radar. If you have a VHF radar, you can see it.

Base on all these, J20 is very good.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Photo is from J20, not F35, look at the canard visible from the cockpit.

I doubt this text honestly, "seem to fly professionally" they weren't dogfighting if that encounter even existed. What's professional about calmly flying?

They didn't crash the plane.

 

[Song Hong]

For example Korean KF-21 is not stealth. Look at the number of salient parts such as missiles and pods beneath the planes. It has no DSI also.