F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Zarbe Momin]

F-22 P is not a bad decision at all it just has bad air defence missel system it shuold be changed as early as possilbe. If i would be chief of Naval staff i will send today recommendation to replace present air defence system on F-22P with Aster 30.

 

[Penguin]

F-22 P is not a bad decision at all it just has bad air defence missel system it shuold be changed as early as possilbe. If i would be chief of Naval staff i will send today recommendation to replace present air defence system on F-22P with Aster 30.

- Considering what it is replacing (only 3 out of 6 Type 21 have a quintuple launcher for the chinese LY60 SAM, while all F22P get FM90)
- It would not be costeffective and there is no way physically to put Aster30 or even Aster15 in F22P imho: they are simply too small and ill equipped to handle Aster, Sylver and associated multifunction radar. But perhaps VL Mica?

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Oh Yes! Aster 30 can be integrated on F-22P. Don't us more but just 6 Aster 30 missels lanching lanchers & reloading system with westren long range radar and then integrate FM90 with that long range radar so Aster 30 missel will be threat to aircraft and helicopters at long range and also can be use as anti missel role at long range and FM90 can be used then in close range antimissel role. This can be done easily. Use same missel lancher Pad which is on F-22P in lower 2 rows 6 lanchers for Aster 30 and in upper row 4 FM90 missel lanchers. Same missel reloading system which is present on F-22P can be modified to load Aster 30 missels. Normally other Frigrates which use Aster 30 they have 16 Cells to fire Aster 30 and on other hand their weight is in same class as F-22P but because we dont have much place on F-22P to integrated 16 Aster 30 missel cells so we can modify existing missel lanching system and there we can integrate Aster 30.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FM-90_SAM.JPG

Aster 30
Weight 510 kg
Length 4.2 m
Diameter 180 mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Aster
FM-90
Launch weight: 84.5 kg
length 3.00 m
diameter 0.156 m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-7#HQ-7A_.28FM-90.29

Logically speaking it is possilbe and by comparing Aster 30 and FM 90 data there is just a difference in weight and 6 Aster 30 missels in lanchers and 12 in store will not bring a big difference.

 

[Penguin]

Oh Yes! Aster 30 can be integrated on F-22P. Don't us more but just 6 Aster 30 missels lanching lanchers & reloading system with westren long range radar and then integrate FM90 with that long range radar so Aster 30 missel will be threat to aircraft and helicopters at long range and also can be use as anti missel role at long range and FM90 can be used then in close range antimissel role. This can be done easily. Use same missel lancher Pad which is on F-22P in lower 2 rows 6 lanchers for Aster 30 and in upper row 4 FM90 missel lanchers. Same missel reloading system which is present on F-22P can be modified to load Aster 30 missels. Normally other Frigrates which use Aster 30 they have 16 Cells to fire Aster 30 and on other hand their weight is in same class as F-22P but because we dont have much place on F-22P to integrated 16 Aster 30 missel cells so we can modify existing missel lanching system and there we can integrate Aster 30.

File:FM-90 SAM.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aster 30
Weight 510 kg
Length 4.2 m
Diameter 180 mm
MBDA Aster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FM-90
Launch weight: 84.5 kg
length 3.00 m
diameter 0.156 m
HQ-7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Logically speaking it is possilbe and by comparing Aster 30 and FM 90 data there is just a difference in weight and 6 Aster 30 missels in lanchers and 12 in store will not bring a big difference.

Again, there is NO assisted reloading on F22P.
As for the rest, this is ... well ...
I'm sorry, let's just call it 'not very realistic':

Both Aster 15 and 30 are a missile on a big booster. Missile diameter may be 18cm but missile wingspan is more already, and with booster attached it is yet more. And unlike FM90, Aster wings don't fold. So your plan to use the FM90 launcher cannot work. And if you - hypothetically - would use the missile without the booster, well, then you might as well use VL Mica (which mounts the same active radar and is jsut a little smaller) Not even going into the issue of fitting the advanced multifunction radar to F22P, and whether the cost of that is worth it when firepower is - at best - just 6 missiles....

 

[hj786]

Penguin do you know of any frigates similar to the 22P that have had old missile launchers replaced with VL missile silos? I know that FM-90N is essentially a Chinese version of the Crotale which is still in use on new French frigates but the figures quoted in the FM-90 brochure seem to be worse than those quoted for the latest naval Crotale. I don't think top-weight would be affected by a VL missile silo of 8-16 VL MICAs or something similar.

Nice pics of the awesome Aster, its a pity the 22P is not one of the 6000+ tonne monsters able to carry it in numbers.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Again, there is NO assisted reloading on F22P.
As for the rest, this is ... well ...
I'm sorry, let's just call it 'not very realistic':

Both Aster 15 and 30 are a missile on a big booster. Missile diameter may be 18cm but missile wingspan is more already, and with booster attached it is yet more. And unlike FM90, Aster wings don't fold. So your plan to use the FM90 launcher cannot work. And if you - hypothetically - would use the missile without the booster, well, then you might as well use VL Mica (which mounts the same active radar and is jsut a little smaller) Not even going into the issue of fitting the advanced multifunction radar to F22P, and whether the cost of that is worth it when firepower is - at best - just 6 missiles....

Use same missel lanching plate form which is on F-22P in lower 2 rows 6 lanchers for Aster 30 and in upper two rows 8 FM90 missel lanchers. Obviously when i argue to integrate Aster 30 to accomodate on same missel lanching plate form that means for Aster 30 square box form lanchers can be fitted as they are for C-802 anti ship missile
File:C-802 anti ship missile.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[crowreturns]

As a Chinese,I can only say the F-22Ps are good value for money however equipped with some "old" weapons.And I think we already sold those class ships to Pakistan much cheaper than to any other countries without referring to the help to the shipbuilding of Pakistan,because we are friends.Once you can bulid F-22P class by yourselves,you can develop your ideal ships step by step.I think it is a sensible plan for PN.
I must admit that i have a little anger with Growler about his replies.you can say F-22P is unworthiness or old design of 80s or PN is wasting his money ...
BUT,What is the "kickback"! I think it is not genty.we chinese do no harm to Pakistn,F-22P is your PN's choice.Our shipyards have no time to waste to kickback cos they have heavy tasks to build our own warships for our blue water dream.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

As a Chinese,I can only say the F-22Ps are good value for money however equipped with some "old" weapons.And I think we already sold those class ships to Pakistan much cheaper than to any other countries without referring to the help to the shipbuilding of Pakistan,because we are friends.Once you can bulid F-22P class by yourselves,you can develop your ideal ships step by step.I think it is a sensible plan for PN.
I must admit that i have a little anger with Growler about his replies.you can say F-22P is unworthiness or old design of 80s or PN is wasting his money ...
BUT,What is the "kickback"! I think it is not genty.we chinese do no harm to Pakistn,F-22P is your PN's choice.Our shipyards have no time to waste to kickback cos they have heavy tasks to build our own warships for our blue water dream.

bro why are you getting angry on me?
I am merely trying to discuss the issues... i said kickbacks could be one of the possibilities but i highly believe politics has to do more with this deal. btw i am not a ignorant chinese hater..

 

[muse]

British, Saudi officials call on naval chief

ISLAMABAD: Outgoing British defence attaché Brig Steve Sherry and incoming attaché Brig Alasdair Loudon on Wednesday called on Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir and discussed various issues of mutual interest, a statement by Pakistan Navy said. Separately, Saudi Ambassador Abdul Aziz Al-Ghadeer called on the naval chief and exchanged views on matters of bilateral interest.

 

[Super Falcon]

Admitting that India neither has the “capability nor the intention” to match China’s military strength, Chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee and Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta said here today that “common sense dictates” that India needs to cooperate with China rather than confront it.“In military terms, both conventional and non-conventional, we neither have the capability nor the intention to match China, force for force. These are indeed sobering thoughts and therefore our strategy to deal with China would need to be in consonance with these realities,” Mehta said, delivering an address on National Security Challenges organized by the National Maritime Foundation.

In his address, perhaps his last in public as Navy chief — he retires month-end — Mehta said: “Common sense dictates that cooperation with China would be preferable to competition or conflict, as it would be foolhardy to compare India and China as equals...Whether in terms of GDP, defence spending or any other economic, social or development parameter, the gap between the two is just too wide to bridge and getting wider by the day,” the officer said. Warning that China will be one of India’s primary challenges in the years ahead, Mehta said that the country is in the process of consolidating its “comprehensive national power” and is creating “formidable military capabilities” and boundary issues between the countries could lead to mistrust.“Once that is done, China is likely to be more assertive on its claims, especially in its immediate neighbourhood. Our ‘trust deficit’ with China can never be liquidated unless our boundary problems are resolved,” the Navy Chief said.Pointing out that India’s expenditure on Defence has been hovering around a low two percent of GDP in recent years, Mehta said that the strategy to deal with China on the military front would be to introduce modern technology and create a “reliable stand-off deterrent.”

“On the military front, our strategy to deal with China must include reducing the military gap and countering the growing Chinese footprint in the Indian Ocean Region,” the officer said.However, he warned that unless spending on defence is increased substantially, the military gap could even widen further. “Let alone bridging the gap between us and our potential adversaries, without a substantial increase, the gap may widen further and dilute our operational edge,” Mehta said.Making it clear that India needs to grow out of its Pakistan-centric approach when it comes to strategic planning, Mehta said that China’s growing power should be a major consideration in future national planning.“China’s known propensity for intervention in space and cyber warfare would also be major planning considerations in our strategic and operational thinking,” he said.

 

[muse]

On the military front, our strategy to deal with China must include reducing the military gap and countering the growing Chinese footprint in the Indian Ocean Region

Thems fightin words! -- and a clear indication of INTENT.

 

[Penguin]

Penguin do you know of any frigates similar to the 22P that have had old missile launchers replaced with VL missile silos? I know that FM-90N is essentially a Chinese version of the Crotale which is still in use on new French frigates but the figures quoted in the FM-90 brochure seem to be worse than those quoted for the latest naval Crotale. I don't think top-weight would be affected by a VL missile silo of 8-16 VL MICAs or something similar.

Nice pics of the awesome Aster, its a pity the 22P is not one of the 6000+ tonne monsters able to carry it in numbers.

Chili used to operate several ex-UK County class destroyers (PN used to have one too) in which 2 Sea Cat launchers were replace by 2 8-cell VL Barak units.

There is no reason why F22P basic hull could not support VL missiles. Barak would definitely fit, even as an 'above deck' installation (see IN upgrades of Godavari class frigates). I'm fairly positive VlSeaWolf/VLMica could fit (both use the same launch canister i.e. as used on UK Type 23 frigates and Malaysian Lekiu light frigates). Problably VL Umkhonto might also work. Even a VL version of the Russian R77 AAM. It could possibly even mount a single 'self-defence' Mk41 VLU (the shortest of three sizes in which Mk41 comes: footprint of any 8-cell Mk41 unit is 3.4mx2.54m but lengths differ from 5.3m to 6.8m to 7.7m) which could hold 32 ESSM. Alternative to the Mk41 would be one of the 4 variants of the Mk48 launching system (currently in use in Canadian Halifax class, Dutch Doorman class, Danish Stanflex ships and Korean KD-1).

Mk48: each canister holds a VL Sea Sparrow or could hold a twinpack ESSM


As for information on performance of Crotale, do realize that the French have developed a new missile (VT1) for use with both the new (a.k.a. Crotale NG) and the old systems (which use the R440). This might explain the discrepancy with FM90 data.

EDIT: Just discoverd there is a VL version of the VT1 missile and it - like VL Mica - can belaunched from the A35 version of the French Sylver VLU. There's a good candidate, as VT1 would/should be compatible or easily made compatible with the HQ7 radar director.

 

[Penguin]

Use same missel lanching plate form which is on F-22P in lower 2 rows 6 lanchers for Aster 30 and in upper two rows 8 FM90 missel lanchers. Obviously when i argue to integrate Aster 30 to accomodate on same missel lanching plate form that means for Aster 30 square box form lanchers can be fitted as they are for C-802 anti ship missile
File:C-802 anti ship missile.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

obviously

The size of a canister for the SAMP/T (landbased Aster 30) is 5m x 0.55m x 0.55m. It weighs 830kg full mass and 370kg empty (suggesting payload weight of max. 460kg, which compares well with manufacturer information for Aster-30 of 4.8m long and weighing 445kg)
See: ???? Aster? ??? M-SAM, SAMP-T ??? ??? - ??? ?? ???? ??? - ??! ???

Below a pic from the french DCNS group showing their range of vertical launchers.
From right to left
A70 - used on FREMM for Scalp Naval cruise missile (7m long)
A50 - used for both Aster 15 and Aster 30 (5m long)
A43 - used for Aster 15, which is shorter than Aster 30 (4.3m long)
A35 - used for VL Mica and VL-VT1, with VT1 being the missile used in Crotale NG (3.5m long)
By comparison, an 8-cell Mk41 unit measures 3.4mx2.54m and is available in 3 different lengths (selfdefence 5.3m, tactical 6.8m, strike 7.7m)

DCNS | Sylver

Crotale Naval (R.440/R.460)/Crotale NG (VT-1)/Chun Ma Dimensions: 15 cm x 2.89 m;
span 54 cm (5.9 x 113.7 x 21.3 in)
Weight: 80 kg ( 1 76 Ib)

A missile like Crotale or HQ7 and variants would fit the A35. The 5m canister for Aster-30 is about 1.5m longer. The missile itself is 5.5x heavier. Can you not see that putting canisters with Aster 30 onto a launcher designed for much shorter and lighter missiles/canisters will not work?

1xCrotale missiles = 80kg
1xAster-30 missile = 445kg
1 loaded SAMP/T canister (i.e. including 1 Aster-30) = 830kg
That is the weight of 10 HQ7 missiles without canisters!

Assuming (830/445)*80=149.2kg for a HQ7 missile in a canister
then x8 on the launcher = 1193.7kg, which is 1.4 loaded SAMP/T canisters

 

[Penguin]

Thems fightin words! -- and a clear indication of INTENT.

So? Many asian countries look at china's growing military power and power projection capability with great mistrust. What are China's interests in the Indian Ocean, which would justify military presence there or power projection capabilities that could be deployed there?

 

[Comet]

So? Many asian countries look at china's growing military power and power projection capability with great mistrust. What are China's interests in the Indian Ocean, which would justify military presence there or power projection capabilities that could be deployed there?

Trade? Oil Trade Corridor ?