F-22 Raptor pilots practice simulated combat against Pakistan, UK & France Pilots

[Tuahaa]

If you can't lock onto F-22s, how are you supposed to fight them? Dodge all the missiles (quite difficult) and get into gun range (quite impossible)?

 

[amalakas]

If you have planes that can detect the launch of a missile then you know missiles are coming and where they are coming from.

Also there are various levels of detect, you may detect but not be able to track. You may be able to track but not lock weapons on the target.

 

[Donatello]

thats not true actually. from what i gather no one gets a whiff of the 5th gen aspects of the plane in such an exercise.raptors are flown with rcs enhancers so that no one gets to now the true rcs.

apart from the USAF, everyone else is doing gueswork about a 5th gen environment.

What? Can you provide concrete evidence for your GUESS WORK?

I would love to read it, because you are sitting here while the PAF and USAF Pros are doing, what i think, they know way better than you.

 

[Patriot]

If you have planes that can detect the launch of a missile then you know missiles are coming and where they are coming from.

Also there are various levels of detect, you may detect but not be able to track. You may be able to track but not lock weapons on the target.

Well In F22 AIM120 stays passive until it near the target and then turn into active missile by this time pilot wont stand a chance.Also F22 Radar is passive in a sense that it can detect other jets without them knowing that they are being tracked by another radar.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Well In F22 AIM120 stays passive until it near the target and then turn into active missile by this time pilot wont stand a chance.Also F22 Radar is passive in a sense that it can detect other jets without them knowing that they are being tracked by another radar.

Radar can detect in coming Missiles wether it be passive or active.

 

[Safriz]

With such an ultra high price tag,i am not surprised if F-22 has got such unique capabilities...
Dont you think that many countries can make similar plane if they can spend a billion dollar per plane?

 

[Donatello]

With such an ultra high price tag,i am not surprised if F-22 has got such unique capabilities...
Dont you think that many countries can make similar plane if they can spend a billion dollar per plane?

It's not exactly a billion dollar per plane cost, but more like 300 Million if development is counted with training and weapons and spares.


I guess you can buy about 10 JF-17s in that case.........

 

[Tuahaa]

These things are really dangerous... Also, India might be getting PAK FAs so we need a good counter.

When it is PAF's turn to get stealth fighters, I don't think they will be F22s. We don't know our relationship with America in the future (probably heavily crippled for obvious reasons) so I think it'll have to be a Pak-China joint venture. And soon.

 

[Safriz]

These things are really dangerous... Also, India might be getting PAK FAs so we need a good counter.

When it is PAF's turn to get stealth fighters, I don't think they will be F22s. We don't know our relationship with America in the future (probably heavily crippled for obvious reasons) so I think it'll have to be a Pak-China joint venture. And soon.

Instead of spending money on stealth,which nobody will give us and eventually we will hav eto develop on our own...why not invest in anti stealth radar?
As far as i know,all the so called stealth planes have a radar signature,but it is very small,and the normal radar rejects it as a clutter or noise blip.
If the aircraft's radar can cross referrence every radar echo it gets,with a more powerful and somehow anti stealth ground based radar,the aurcraft's radar will know that the tiny echo which it just rejected as noise is not noise but an actual plane and will keep tracking it.
No more stealth then?

 

[Chogy]

The problems that they would then face is that the algorithms would have to include every airborne object with a RCS equal to the F-22, and that includes birds. The truth is that the majority of AI radars are not sensitive enough to detect the F-22... in other words, the blip isn't filtered out, it isn't even there.

Some of the earliest tests of the production F-22's were done at Nellis a few years back, where a pair of F-22's consistently destroyed 8 expertly flown F-15C's, causing great frustration for the F-15 guys. They never saw the Raptors... they simply died.

At least for now, the F-22 is nearly untouchable in combat. The F-117 has been around for decades. If making an "anti-stealth" radar was feasible, I think the Russians would have made one by now.

 

[fatman17]

The problems that they would then face is that the algorithms would have to include every airborne object with a RCS equal to the F-22, and that includes birds. The truth is that the majority of AI radars are not sensitive enough to detect the F-22... in other words, the blip isn't filtered out, it isn't even there.

Some of the earliest tests of the production F-22's were done at Nellis a few years back, where a pair of F-22's consistently destroyed 8 expertly flown F-15C's, causing great frustration for the F-15 guys. They never saw the Raptors... they simply died.

At least for now, the F-22 is nearly untouchable in combat. The F-117 has been around for decades. If making an "anti-stealth" radar was feasible, I think the Russians would have made one by now.

History Channel had a documentry on the F-22, and it said exactly what 'chogy' has said above - they shd be nicknamed the 'untouchables'

 

[Safriz]

The swedes were experimenting with a radar which did not rely on Radar wave reflection,instead it analyzed the shadow created by an airborne object.All stealth absorb and deflect radar waves,and that way create a prominent shadow.The transmitter and receiver were on different locations.That way they also avoided radar jamming.

Swedes abandoned the project for reasons unknown..May well be technical.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The problems that they would then face is that the algorithms would have to include every airborne object with a RCS equal to the F-22, and that includes birds. The truth is that the majority of AI radars are not sensitive enough to detect the F-22... in other words, the blip isn't filtered out, it isn't even there.

Some of the earliest tests of the production F-22's were done at Nellis a few years back, where a pair of F-22's consistently destroyed 8 expertly flown F-15C's, causing great frustration for the F-15 guys. They never saw the Raptors... they simply died.

At least for now, the F-22 is nearly untouchable in combat. The F-117 has been around for decades. If making an "anti-stealth" radar was feasible, I think the Russians would have made one by now.

Do you think that Within Range Air combat is going to make a combat when stealth fighters become common place?

 

[Donatello]

The problems that they would then face is that the algorithms would have to include every airborne object with a RCS equal to the F-22, and that includes birds. The truth is that the majority of AI radars are not sensitive enough to detect the F-22... in other words, the blip isn't filtered out, it isn't even there.

Some of the earliest tests of the production F-22's were done at Nellis a few years back, where a pair of F-22's consistently destroyed 8 expertly flown F-15C's, causing great frustration for the F-15 guys. They never saw the Raptors... they simply died.

At least for now, the F-22 is nearly untouchable in combat. The F-117 has been around for decades. If making an "anti-stealth" radar was feasible, I think the Russians would have made one by now.

The Yugoslavians used the old Soviet radar on longer wavelengths to bring a F-117 down. Easily.

The thing is Radar waves can see anything that has mass, that's actually whats stopping the engineers from making Ground penetrating radars because range of a few meters is available at the moment. Maybe in future with better computers they can sort things out better with more control over frequencies.

But at the moment are the glory days of F-22.

Pakistan and China can make one, albeit a stealth, low RCS plane for much cheaper than that. Time to start working now.

 

[Chogy]

Do you think that Within Range Air combat is going to make a combat when stealth fighters become common place?

I'm not sure I understand... are you wondering what the environment will be like when all the aircraft are like the F-22? If so, it's an excellent question. I have images of clusters of jets groping blindly about, looking for each other, unable to do so.

These will find just about any "bomb truck" (anything with underslung ordnance) to be easy prey. In the future, the ability of aircraft like the F-15E to drop 17,000 pounds of iron bombs might be very limited. The aerial battlefield would evolve into a state where the capability to send waves of interdicting aircraft would be nearly impossible.

Until there is a means to detect true 5th gen fighters, they will rule. I think that detection will come from IR advances, or higher wavelengths, such as visible-light "LADARS", for example. The physics of flight requires heat, pure and simple, and the ability to hide heat will always be limited. Reduced, but not taken to nil. And of course, the jet is visible to high-freq. EM radiation such as visible light. But as wavelengths increase, atmospheric phenomenon will interfere... a simple cloud will hide a source, whereas clouds do not inhibit modern radars.

Experiments with stealth boats showed that they could be detected by radar reflections off the wake they create. At the front of the wake is a black hole, followed by a classic "V" shape in the water. Perhaps that is what the Swedes were attempting, to look for the atmospheric disturbance left behind by a stealth aircraft.

Like Armor and anti-armor weapons, the tug of war will go back and forth as scientific advances are made. Right now, reduced RCS is winning the battle, but something may arrive to reverse that.

One last challenge that stealth presents is the denial of a return for weapons. You might be able to tweak an AI radar to see an F-22, but if using anything except a semi-active weapon, the weapon itself won't see the F-22 when it goes active. Or, a puff of chaff would turn a miniscule, tweaky return into a giant target, and chaff from a stealth platform might be extremely effective.

It is interesting to ponder the future battlefield, and there are highly-paid people who do it full time, in an attempt to get ahead of the competition.