F-22 Raptor pilots practice simulated combat against Pakistan, UK & France Pilots

[siegecrossbow]

I'm not sure I understand... are you wondering what the environment will be like when all the aircraft are like the F-22? If so, it's an excellent question. I have images of clusters of jets groping blindly about, looking for each other, unable to do so.

These will find just about any "bomb truck" (anything with underslung ordnance) to be easy prey. In the future, the ability of aircraft like the F-15E to drop 17,000 pounds of iron bombs might be very limited. The aerial battlefield would evolve into a state where the capability to send waves of interdicting aircraft would be nearly impossible.

Until there is a means to detect true 5th gen fighters, they will rule. I think that detection will come from IR advances, or higher wavelengths, such as visible-light "LADARS", for example. The physics of flight requires heat, pure and simple, and the ability to hide heat will always be limited. Reduced, but not taken to nil. And of course, the jet is visible to high-freq. EM radiation such as visible light. But as wavelengths increase, atmospheric phenomenon will interfere... a simple cloud will hide a source, whereas clouds do not inhibit modern radars.

Experiments with stealth boats showed that they could be detected by radar reflections off the wake they create. At the front of the wake is a black hole, followed by a classic "V" shape in the water. Perhaps that is what the Swedes were attempting, to look for the atmospheric disturbance left behind by a stealth aircraft.

Like Armor and anti-armor weapons, the tug of war will go back and forth as scientific advances are made. Right now, reduced RCS is winning the battle, but something may arrive to reverse that.

One last challenge that stealth presents is the denial of a return for weapons. You might be able to tweak an AI radar to see an F-22, but if using anything except a semi-active weapon, the weapon itself won't see the F-22 when it goes active. Or, a puff of chaff would turn a miniscule, tweaky return into a giant target, and chaff from a stealth platform might be extremely effective.

It is interesting to ponder the future battlefield, and there are highly-paid people who do it full time, in an attempt to get ahead of the competition.

Thank you so much! Yes my question was whether planes will engage in close combat once all fighters have RCS similar to the Raptor and your answer is superb!

 

[Safriz]

The Yugoslavians used the old Soviet radar on longer wavelengths to bring a F-117 down. Easily.

The thing is Radar waves can see anything that has mass, that's actually whats stopping the engineers from making Ground penetrating radars because range of a few meters is available at the moment. Maybe in future with better computers they can sort things out better with more control over frequencies.

But at the moment are the glory days of F-22.

Pakistan and China can make one, albeit a stealth, low RCS plane for much cheaper than that. Time to start working now.

The Incident you are mentioning here was in the Balkans war i suppose? That was a dogfight not a missile strike.

F-117 came too close for comfort with a more agile Mig,and was shot down by the Pilot..F-117 is the first generation of stealth..It was just stealth and that was all about it..Not any good for dogfights due to lack of manoevarability. This problem was solved in F-22.

EDIT I just read the wiki article on that shooting down incident and you may be right.But i have read on other ources that it was a dogfight which brought the plane down..Then again,we cant compare F-117 and F-22

 

[gambit]

The Yugoslavians used the old Soviet radar on longer wavelengths to bring a F-117 down. Easily.

No...It was not so 'easily'. This 'long wavelength' story has been debunked elsewhere here. If it was so 'easily' then why was only one F-117 shot down? And if it was so 'easily' done against the F-117, then it should have been a thousand times more 'easily' against much more radar reflective aircrafts. But NATO flew tens of thousands of sorties over Yugoslavia and lost only TWO aircrafts from air defense missiles: one F-16 and one F-117. That is not an air defense combat I would boast about at the bar. Zoltan Dani got lucky from many factors, two important ones were that there were sympathizers who watched NATO flight schedules and that NATO was flying under predictable ingress/egress routes. Predictability equals to death in war. Still...To this day, Dani refused to divulge how many missiles he launched and the F-117 pilot, Dale Zelko, recalled he had to dodge at least two missiles. That mean it was a classic 'spray-and-pray' tactic that goes back to WW II AA gunnery. There were no MIG involved.

 

[gambit]

The swedes were experimenting with a radar which did not rely on Radar wave reflection,instead it analyzed the shadow created by an airborne object.All stealth absorb and deflect radar waves,and that way create a prominent shadow.The transmitter and receiver were on different locations.That way they also avoided radar jamming.

Swedes abandoned the project for reasons unknown..May well be technical.

Experiments with stealth boats showed that they could be detected by radar reflections off the wake they create. At the front of the wake is a black hole, followed by a classic "V" shape in the water. Perhaps that is what the Swedes were attempting, to look for the atmospheric disturbance left behind by a stealth aircraft.

safriz,

The core of radar detection is about reflection. What you may have heard of and about is called the 'forward scattering' mode of radar detection.

If there are any reflections off the target's body and if those signals returned to source direction, that is called 'back scatter' signals. Any reflections that is away from the transmitter is called 'forward scatter' signals. The 'back scatter' signals are also sometimes called 'mono-static' signals with 'mono-static' meaning one radar antenna does two jobs: transmit and receive. The 'forward scatter' signals are sometimes called 'bi-static' signals with 'bi-static' meaning TWO physically and geographically distinct antennas. The transmitter provides the source radar detection signals, the target provides the reflective/diffractive body, and the receiver antenna process those reflective/difractive signals that came off the target.

Note I said: reflective/diffractive.

The above is 'diffraction'.

An aircraft is a complex body with many reflective/difractive features on that body with the entire aircraft itself being a diffractor. Forward scatter radar (FSR) detection mode falls under the general bi-static radar principle in that FSR still requires two (or more) structures to effect detection. Diffracted signals are considerably more non-coherent than reflected signals. The technical challenge here is how to collate the two where one (or worse -- both) of whom can be within the clutter rejection threshold, the level of signals that is considered to be unwanted radiation and this include cosmic background radiation as well. Non-coherent signals have statistically irrelevant Doppler value, even when those Doppler signals are produced by a highly maneuvering body like a fighter.

The major problem for FSR mode against non-cooperative bodies like the F-22 is ironically based upon the Babinet's Principle...

Babinet's principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In physics, Babinet's principle is a theorem concerning diffraction that states that the diffraction pattern from an opaque body is identical to that from a hole of the same size and shape except for the overall forward beam intensity.

To put it in simpler language -- The amount of energy reflected and absorbed is the same as the energy diffracted around the target.

Add the two values: reflection and diffraction...And you should have the total RCS value of the body. But the problem is that the F-22's RCS is within that clutter rejection threshold. In other words, it was ALREADY rejected so how can you detect something that you rejected in the first place? The clutter rejection threshold, the region that includes music radio, TV, cell phones, cosmic background radiation (CBR), GPS...etc...etc...Is NOT uniform. We know it usually is below a level with the occasional spikes and when we filter it out, those spikes become false targets, as in 'constant false alarm' (CFAR) processing...

Constant false alarm rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constant false alarm rate (CFAR) detection refers to a common form of adaptive algorithm used in radar systems to detect target returns against a background of noise, clutter and interference. Other detection algorithms are not adaptive. Non-adaptive detectors are sometimes referred to as clairvoyant detectors.

CFAR algorithms are not pretty and many of them are in the 'felonious' category, meaning revealing the more complex ones will produce prison time.

Anyway...The clutter rejection threshold is full of valleys, plateaus and spikes. So in order for an FSR system to even guess the whereabout of an F-22, the system must lower this threshold to practically nil, meaning the system must effectively detect everything -- or filter out nothing. Even though the F-22's bi-static RCS is greater than its mono-static RCS, with the current technology level, the electronic gain does not justify the cost required, especially because we need at least two structures to operate the system.

 

[Safriz]

@Gambit..That was a good read..Thanks.

Starting from F-117,and that Big flying wing B-2 stealths,the upper surfaces of the Airplane were more radar detectabale than the lower surfaces..Probably due to the assumption that the radar beams will most probably come from down below,from ground based radars...Thats why the air intakes were on top of those planes instead of sides or bottom..
An airborne AWACS may have been a more effective way of detection for those planes..But now the stealth tech has advanced and planes like F-22 are stealth all round.

I am not paid to think hard on finding a viable solution for detection and tracking of stealth planes,otherwise i had suggested a sci-fi style new system....

I rather leave it for the moment

 

[MastanKhan]

The swedes were experimenting with a radar which did not rely on Radar wave reflection,instead it analyzed the shadow created by an airborne object.All stealth absorb and deflect radar waves,and that way create a prominent shadow.The transmitter and receiver were on different locations.That way they also avoided radar jamming.

Swedes abandoned the project for reasons unknown..May well be technical.

Hi,

Seems like it was on the similiar principal on which submarines look for other submarines hiding in the ocean--- ie a hole in the ocean---.

Which means, that the ocean has its natural sounds and activities---any place that does not have those sounds and activity is the enemy sub---

 

[Irfan Baloch]

---you know why they don't have competition amongst the teams in dissimiliar leagues---because they know that the superior team would pummel the inferior team to kingdom come---the psychology of humiliating defeat would be so great that the losing team will be emotionally pulverized.

your comment reminds me of the days when I was learning to play squash. And it was my soul which got quashed every time I entered the court and had to face a “champ” of the club. The sounds of his explosive shots were like slaps on my face. the way he used to swing his hands was as if he was lashing me for daring to enter his playground.
The way he unceremoniously finished me off and sent me out was an experience I don’t relish. There was next to no learning unless I trained with the newbie’s myself

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I have seen a documentary where the F22 brings down F15s with ease...

Is there any way that Pakistan could counteract the F22 in a hypothetical war against America... (not that the Americans will ever dare fight against Pakistan or have such capability to be able to bring the F22s even close to Pakistan airspace... unless they fly them from India)

 

[Safriz]

I have seen a documentary where the F22 brings down F15s with ease...

Is there any way that Pakistan could counteract the F22 in a hypothetical war against America... (not that the Americans will ever dare fight against Pakistan or have such capability to be able to bring the F22s even close to Pakistan airspace... unless they fly them from India)

Americans DO have every military capability to over run Pakistan..dont be deluded my friend..
They dont need to do it right now..But looking at their love affair with India,they are even sharing nuclear technology with India,USA cant be a reliable friend and we need to be on the look out.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I have seen a documentary where the F22 brings down F15s with ease...

Is there any way that Pakistan could counteract the F22 in a hypothetical war against America... (not that the Americans will ever dare fight against Pakistan or have such capability to be able to bring the F22s even close to Pakistan airspace... unless they fly them from India)

kindly think hard before you post your comments which are naive and laughable. Americans wont have any problem with controlling Pakistani airspace with or without F22 raptors. Their Naval fleets have full air compliments and are small independent armies in their own right. They can literally “park” their fleet in any country’s shore they like.
By the way, have you heard of mid-air re-fuelling? There are many countries apart from India that wont have any problem with allowing American planes flying for Pakistan if such a hypothetical situation arises.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

safriz... i am not deluded... I understand the American strength but I am also aware of their weaknesses... I totally agree with you that they are not reliable and as you mentioned they are even sharing technology with our arch enemy India... What I meant was this...

They cannot bring their Aircraft Carriers close enough to Pakistan (correct me if I m wrong) because Pakistan could theoretically use a tactical nuke strike against such an attempt)... This is why I stated that the only way they could bring their F22 in combat against Pakistan would be by flying them from India... They cannot do that from other countries surrounding Pakistan (maybe one of the Central Asian countries... dont think Russia would allow fifth generation warplanes on one of their former soviet states)...

But the question remains... what could Pakistan do against a fifth generation warplane... If we continue such a hypothetical scenrio then we have no choice but to acquire such warplanes from China... I have heard from American military personnel that the top Sukhoi are good too? Will they compare anything with the F22?

 

[mjnaushad]

I have seen a documentary where the F22 brings down F15s with ease...

Is there any way that Pakistan could counteract the F22 in a hypothetical war against America... (not that the Americans will ever dare fight against Pakistan or have such capability to be able to bring the F22s even close to Pakistan airspace... unless they fly them from India)

Why do we need to go to war....??? Unless MMA takeover the govt.

US can fly right in....Our best fighter wont see the fight with US because it itself is US made the F16....Others might give fight to USAF but certainly not win (NO offence intended, Its just reality)

Stealth bombers can take out any target they want....


but you know what....its never going to be such thing as PAF V USAF ....we fight side by side

want a proof ....see below....

 

[mjnaushad]

safriz... i am not deluded... I understand the American strength but I am also aware of their weaknesses... I totally agree with you that they are not reliable and as you mentioned they are even sharing technology with our arch enemy India... What I meant was this...

They cannot bring their Aircraft Carriers close enough to Pakistan (correct me if I m wrong) because Pakistan could theoretically use a tactical nuke strike against such an attempt)... This is why I stated that the only way they could bring their F22 in combat against Pakistan would be by flying them from India... They cannot do that from other countries surrounding Pakistan (maybe one of the Central Asian countries... dont think Russia would allow fifth generation warplanes on one of their former soviet states)...

But the question remains... what could Pakistan do against a fifth generation warplane... If we continue such a hypothetical scenrio then we have no choice but to acquire such warplanes from China... I have heard from American military personnel that the top Sukhoi are good too? Will they compare anything with the F22?

We'll tactical nuke them and they'll send F22......

You want simple answer...We have nothing to counter F22. The sukois are 4.5 gen Aircraft while F22 is 5th gen one of its kind in service with an Airforce...PAF have no 5th gen Aircraft as yet.

 

[Safriz]

Ok i understand you now..ARe you asking if there is a possibility of detecting,tracking and destroying a 5th gen plane if it enters Pakistan's airspace..You used the word "Hypothetical" so i will lket my imagination do the work,without any ground reality..

Theoratically any stealth Fighter is more radar reflecting on top than on sides and bottom.There are protruding structures on top,such as cockpit,tails and such..We cannot launch satellites,but we can launch high flying helium filled airships,which can remail airborne at extreme altitudes out of range for most air breathing jet engines.Plus launching and maintaining such vehicles is way cheaper than satelliutes..
A fleet of such airshipe can form a network of airborne radars..Coupled with CCTV style high resolution cameras,which use visible light for target detection,we can devise a robust and viable system for air defence..

This thing can carry 500 tons of payload,which can include airborne radar and visual detection system...

 

[su-47]

We'll tactical nuke them and they'll send F22......

You want simple answer...We have nothing to counter F22. The sukois are 4.5 gen Aircraft while F22 is 5th gen one of its kind in service with an Airforce...PAF have no 5th gen Aircraft as yet.

I doubt any country has anything to counter B-2 or F-22. Maybe some of the best Russian radars can, but even that is highly doubtful.

The thing is, most of the time USA doesn't even need to use their military to punish a nation. a good enough economic sanction can cripple the economy of most nations.