Exercise Garuda begins in France

[you are fired]

good pics brother well can any one upload any clip

 

[nellis6]

I have just joined this forum and there are some great photographs on here, well done to everybody who has contributed. I was in France to enjoy this great exercise and luckily weather was perfect when I was there.

I also have some great photo's but only publish them on my own website, sorry guys!

 

[sancho]

I have just joined this forum and there are some great photographs on here, well done to everybody who has contributed. I was in France to enjoy this great exercise and luckily weather was perfect when I was there.

I also have some great photo's but only publish them on my own website, sorry guys!

Hi nellis6, welcome to PK!

I just checked your site ( Exercise 'Garuda IV' 2010 ), that also has very nice pics of the exercise and nice infos about the aircrafts too.

I hope you can help us with some more inside infos, or rumours that you heard during your visit and maybe you can help to answer some of the questions, posted on the earlier pages. Questions like, is it true that IAF stays for one more week than RSAF? If so, any idea why?
Or, did you heard anything about the Rafale in exercises with our MKIs?

Regards, Sancho

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I have just joined this forum and there are some great photographs on here, well done to everybody who has contributed. I was in France to enjoy this great exercise and luckily weather was perfect when I was there.

I also have some great photo's but only publish them on my own website, sorry guys!

Great pictures, thanks.

 

[KEETARP]

I have my reservations regarding participation of AdA with Rafale this time .
I read reports just now that Rafale were not the part of joint exercise , and will be part of formation for next edition of exercise Garuda11


To add more regarding BARS radar
The smaller L band antennae on BARS has been removed with Batch3 upgrade , earlier it was used for Datalink operation btw 4-6 sukhoi.
All sukhoi30 are under-going refit with new data-links from Spectral systems Israel compatible with Phalcon AWACS data-link which has same system .

Even in training mode , Bars has range of more than 35kms ,
35 should be included for BVR range

 

[anathema]

I have my reservations regarding participation of AdA with Rafale this time .
I read reports just now that Rafale were not the part of joint exercise , and will be part of formation for next edition of exercise Garuda11

So why was media publicizing that Rafale will be a part of excercise? No wonder since there were no/hardly any pics of Rafale from excercise.

Can you publish the report or is it a internal one ?

Also any info on how the excercises went ? How was the BVR engagement ? What were the leasons learnt ?

To add more regarding BARS radar
The smaller L band antennae on BARS has been removed with Batch3 upgrade , earlier it was used for Datalink operation btw 4-6 sukhoi.
All sukhoi30 are under-going refit with new data-links from Spectral systems Israel compatible with Phalcon AWACS data-link which has same system .

Even in training mode , Bars has range of more than 35kms ,
35 should be included for BVR range

How will they talk-link amongst themselves now if there is no AWACS to provide cover?

 

[KEETARP]

Anathema ,
The news is in main stream media also .
I was away for 2 weeks so did not check the posts on forum
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales
someone must have posted this above article for sure before , Shiv aroor writes same "Rafale did not participate"


Just to add Mig29 will have same TADIRAN Spectral system , Specifics of this data link installation can be found in supplementary contract no9 of the principal contract РВ/535611031077 that was inked between Rosoboronexport State Corp and India's Ministry of Defence in Irkutsk on November 30, 2001, The data link was one of several non-Russia GFE avionics

Regarding without AWACS radio-link ,
I am not the correct person to answer right now , have to ask insiders how will it work , give me 2 days to extract that .
May be only data array are removed while voice array are preserved , till whole fleet is data-linked with AWACS .

 

[sancho]

Hey guys, great news about the Exercise Garuda 2010 and our IAF Su 30 MKI (from the MP froum):

Garuda IV: Su-30MKI and F-16D in the French sky

Air&Cosmos 2225 July 5


For the first time, Indian Su-30MKI and Singaporean F-16D Block 52 "Plus" train in the French sky along with Mirage 2000 and Rafale F3.

A rare and impressive sight. The fourth Franco-Indian exercises Garuda (the second time held on the territory of France) gave the Indian Air Force another chance to demonstrate all its capabilities. Six Su-30MKI 8 , accompanied by two Il-78MKI tankers and transport Il-76MD flew from their base in Bareylli to the French air base 125 at Istres, to take part in an exercice, from 14 to 25 June , which take place every two or three years, alternately in India and France.

This year the exercise was expanded: first joined the BA 115 (Orange), 6 F-16D "Plus" (Block 52), of the RSAF 145 Air Squadron , accompanied by a tanker KC-135R of 112 Squadron. A total of 180 crews from India and 120 from Singapore . French Air Force were represented by 5 Mirage 2000-5F from 1/2 "cigogne" squadron and 4 Mirage 2000C/RDI from 2 / 5 "Ile de France" squadron with the support of C-135FR tanker unit 2 / 91"Bretagne".

Opening

Gen. Bruno Clermont from the Department of External Relations of the French Air Force explains: "Combining the 3 modern air forces, which have high-tech fighter planes, making these exercises one of the most important events for the French Air Force." Furthermore, neither India nor Singapore are NATO members, which allows pilots to practice French in various elements of the battle outside the traditional patterns.

"In this regard, the exercise does not use any of NATO strategy , that gives participants a certain freedom in the preparation and conduct of operations." Such an opportunity to go beyond the standard training alliance falls pilots rarely. "For us it is also a way to make an optimal use of precious flying hours," adds General Clermont. According to his Indian colleague, Marshall K. Nohvara, participating in training operations on another continent is for the Indian Air Force "is a real challenge and the opportunity to train together with experienced pilots in a different philosophical and ideological level, climate and more restricted airspace." This view is shared by Singaporeans who have been trained by American standards, which in some parameters differ significantly from NATO. The purpose of these "long-term strategic partners," is to learn different combat tactics, which is especially important since the planned participation of Singapore in operations in Afghanistan.

Scripts

The leadership of the exercice was entrusted to Jean-Paul Clapier,[...]. Was also created a system of video communication between the bases of Istres and Orange. The development of plan for trainings was conducted by the representatives of three countries for a period of two weeks. As a result were created scenarios of different complexity, calculated not only for the most experienced pilots.

The parties first agreed that "all participants will only use their available weapons system". In other words, they must be "honest" to use means of detecting and tracking targets, and fight in accordance with their real possibilities. The idea was to come as close to real conditions in missions of interception, fire support and tracking using the latest generations of fighters. At the same time in the most complex scenarios in each camp provided a mixture of aircraft of all three parties.

The first week of the exercise (weather conditions were frankly unfavorable) was devoted to study the area and in air battles exercices 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4. Pilots of the 2/5 squadron were accompanied by the Su-30 MKI, and 1/2 by the F-16D at an altitude over 3000 meters. Better weather in the second week allowed to approach the fulfillment developed by the National Air Operations Center in longer and more complex missions (an average of 90 minutes at a frequency of 8 flights daily), in which have been engaged up to 20 fighters, supported by tankers and E-3F and E-2C radar planes. The tasks included air combat, interception, escort Transport (C-130 and C-160) and destruction of ground targets for the F-16D and MKI with the participation of Mirage 2000N and Rafale, to which was often assigned the role of enemy units. The zone for these complex operations has been the center of France (TSA.43), west of Perpignan, south of Montpellier (TSA.41 and 46) and Delta 54, which allowed (in the west of Corsica) to fly at low altitudes in the precise conditions of compliance with security measures.

The confrontation of the operational standards of participating countries has improved the mutual understanding and established interaction between French and foreign crews.

As pointed out by Colonel Clapier, "this cooperation best reflected the operational capabilities of the armies of the member." Interaction between parties can be divided into three components: "good preparation, active conducting of operations by the management, as well as precise planning meetings and briefings". Nevertheless, it remained to solve another problem. How to restore the motion of the fulfillment of assignments of the mixed troops? On the French side the answer of course was the local system of training and reconstruction mission SLPRM (approx. per. Used for operations planning, coordination of pilots in their implementation and subsequent debriefing). For Indian and Singapore sides it was necessary to improvise in the view of the availability (F-16D) or absence (Su-30MKI) of such equipment. As in 2005, the problem was solved with the help of GPS installed on the E-3F program Otaris, which records the route from the indications of radar. Together these two methods allow a detailed analysis of missions, as well as to determine by extrapolation the place of the entry of the majority of rockets.

In spite of the variations of the weather, the ten days exercise was carried out around 430 scheduled flights, which, according to General Clermont, is "a very serious figure, and yet here is attributed hundred sorties in the supplementary program." In addition, two involved in the teachings of the French squadron was carried out in parallel with them and their own training. The French pilots previously had to deal only with the Su-30K, and are now able to much better acquainted with one of the best aircraft of its generation, the Su-30MKI.

Power

All participants were impressed by the skill of Indian pilots, by the work of the powerful N011 Bars radar with a range of 100 nautical miles and also by the engines AL-31FP (13 tons) with a thrust vector control (13 tons). Did not remain unnoticed the wide spectrum [range?] of the anti-aircraft armaments of these aircraft: Russian R-77, similar to the U.S. guided medium range missile AIM-120 Amraam; infrared-guided R-27 , R-73 - the most modern Russian short-range development for close battle. Every Su-30 MKI can bear up to fourteen missiles!

It were the weapons (of course simulated) with which the french pilots have had to deal, opposing them Mica EM / IR (Mirage 2000-5F and Rafale F3), Super 530D and Magic 2 (Mirage 2000RDI). And as a whole they believe that everything went very well. Of course, recognizes the pilot Mirage 2000-5F, their powerful radar allowed them to recognize earlier the situation in the sky, but radar is not everything.

Especially because the Su-30 can not be called a "discreet" aircraft, in contrast to the much more inconspicuous Rafale. We are talking about a complex system, whose main elements are quite detection and concealment. From this point of view, even the Mirage 2000C RDI and its radar with the NTCR function does not hit the face in the dirt. One cannot fail to speak also about the Spectra system of protection and warning established on Rafale, which aims to identify threats to 360 ° around the plane in active or passive mode. It also suppresses the waves around the plane, which hampers its location even with the aid of the most powerful radar.

In addition, Spectra is an excellent data collection system with the possibility of transmission of tactical data via link L16. Indian and Singaporean crews took into consideration this system for calculating the "fair use" of weapons, not using available Su-30 and F-16C jammers.

Training

Although the primary objective of the exercises was to develop team action within them, Air combat exercices were also carried out. As expected, the advantage of "dry" proved their power and maneuverability, although the Indian pilots did not come to use of vector thrust. Despite its overwhelming superiority in climb (300 meters per second) and speed (Mach 2.3 at 11,000 meters), the Su-30MKI suffers greatly from its large mass (39 tons), which to 1,5 tons more than in Rafale and to 2,2 tons exceeds the weight of mirage 2000C. In fact, in dogfight the Mirage appears more "leaping", but in any case, as say the French pilots, the advantage should be seized in the first minute.

In view of the changing nature of potential threats in their areas of influence , the Indians and Singaporeans do not make the acquisition of new tankers in their priorities. The fact is that both the F-16D and the Su-30MKI have considerable flight range without refueling. In the first case, this is due to fuselage fuel tanks [CFT], which give such opportunites to the American fighters . Nevertheless, despite the superficial similarity, F-16 Block 52 + should not be confused with the F-16 Block 60, having greater power and less fuel consumption. F-16 Block 52 + is often called "intermediate" link in the development of the Fighting Falcon. This aircraft has a significant disadvantage in the weight / power ratio, which imposes severe restrictions at altitudes above 6,000 meters. Nevertheless, this machine is an excellent multipurpose Weapons Platform (air-ground, air-air) through the external suspension Litening and Lantirn.

Expansion

In fact, Singapore's 145 Squadron is the first air fire support unit. Nevertheless, they are trained to all forms of combat, according to French pilots, "demonstrating a surprising ability to adapt." There is also such a quality with the Indian pilots, "who are learning more and more NATO standards (...) and are characterized by seriousness and composure in battle, as well as the friendliness and affability in communion. In general Garuda IV was an exceptional event in terms of variety of weapons systems and national standards. It is necessary to note an expansion of "bilaterial" doctrines on new partners and allies, and also being an integral part of doctrines commercial questions[?]. As said general Clermont, the French Air Force wants to fully integrate its Rafale in the future Garuda, to be held in India in two or three years. Germany, for its part also expressed willingness to participate in these exercises with their Typhoon. One of the "essential elements" of the Franco-Indian cooperation could become, thus, a sort of Pandora's box.

The commercial side of the issue

During Garuda IV some Indian military had the opportunity to occup the seat of second pilot during Rafale flights . With growing competition with US- the French fighter is one of the bidders participating in the Indian program of multi-purpose combat aircraft. In addition, the primary task of Dassault and other French suppliers is to sign a contract for the modernization of fifty Mirage 2000H of the Indian Air Force. There are other perspectives for French aircraft industry. First of all is the organization of training and the supply of equipment in connection with the entering into India of the new radar aircraft (IL-76 / Phalcon) and interest to the French experience in the preparation and analysis of operations.

The French and Singaporean air force are now near the signing of an agreement to extend for 20 years the flight school in Cazaux (WB 120). This summer, Singapore must also decide on the replacement of its TA-4SU Skyhawk with a new training aircraft. Among the candidates , one should highlight the promising Korean T-50 Golden Eagle, and Italian M.346 Master, which in many countries in Europe comes to replace the present generation of aircraft for training advanced air combat techniques. The importance of choosing the Singaporean side for France and its partners is due to the possible prospect of large-scale training programs.

Another article, this time of the DSI magazin:

Garuda 2010: Rafale participated
DSI, July 2


If, during the press trip on the Istres base on June 23 were on parking only 6 Indian Su-30, Mirage 2000 RDI from 2/5 "Ile-de-France, 2 indians Ilyushin II-78 and 1 KC-135R from Singapore; the base of Orange, however, welcomed for the first time 6 Singaporeans F-16 , 5 Mirage 2000-5 and ... 3 Rafale. They did not have ongoing involvement in the exercises, but some Indians were able to fly them on the rear seat, and they were used sporadically to play the "attacker". At a time when France is continuing its efforts to sell the Rafale to India (though Paris is in a position of outsider facing Moscow and Washington), and when their number is still counted in the territory, their presence was not an accident.

The fourth edition of Garuda (the first had made the cover of DSI, 2005) which until now gathered up the Indian and French air forces, welcomed for the first time the Singaporean Air Force. "For a rendez-vous of excellence," they explained. Two nations , not NATO members, leaving some autonomy in the conduct of operations, since no Nato strategy forced the trainings.

The objective of Garuda is to improve interoperability of different crews in air defense exercises mainly, in some ground attack exercises, in refueling (Il-78 refueling Mirage, etc..), and at the end of the exercise, in what is called COMAO (Composite Air Operation: multiple aircraft deployments). "Each one finds its interest there on knowledge of materials, men and tactics" explained a 2000 RDI pilot . SU-30 are a generation ahead of 2000-RDI (payload, quality of sensors), but the French pilots (from 2000-5) assured they played their cards right in "beyond visual range" fighting, admitting that some of them have fought in "within visual range" battle, for which the SU-30 thrust vectoring and the range of its radar, they estimate at "a good hundred nautical mile", obviously play in their favor ...

Nevertheless, in the context of such exercises, exact comparisons are impossible because the missions created for the exercice are necessarily tactically unbalanced to get after a quality training. "If we were using our weapons in the best conditions, knowing that we are all, in debriefings, hiding the performance of our equipment, there would inevitably shadow areas" explained a pilot...

So the Rafale participated at some parts of the exercise, IAF pilots were able to fly with them and Garuda 2011 will see full participation of Rafales and possibly German EFs!
Also our pilots made obviously a good job and impressed the French with good skills and tactics and could it be that Bars was not in training mode? The 100nm = 185Km range is prettey much the detection range that was claimed about it in normal modes and the French seems to be impressed by the detection range (the opponents were all fighters with very small RCS!)

 

[Kinetic]

Good. analysis of the exercise. Thanks for sharing Sancho. Learned many aspects of MKI, Mirage-2005, Rafale and F-16 B52+ during operational scenario.


"Especially because the Su-30 can not be called a "discreet" aircraft, in contrast to the much more inconspicuous Rafale. "



"As said general Clermont, the French Air Force wants to fully integrate its Rafale in the future Garuda, to be held in India in two or three years. Germany, for its part also expressed willingness to participate in these exercises with their Typhoon. "

MKI already meet EFT at Ex-Indradhanush and Rafale many times. But these three competing each other at a joint exercise in India is significant.

 

[sancho]

Good. analysis of the exercise. Thanks for sharing Sancho. Learned many aspects of MKI, Mirage-2005, Rafale and F-16 B52+ during operational scenario.


"Especially because the Su-30 can not be called a "discreet" aircraft, in contrast to the much more inconspicuous Rafale. "



"As said general Clermont, the French Air Force wants to fully integrate its Rafale in the future Garuda, to be held in India in two or three years. Germany, for its part also expressed willingness to participate in these exercises with their Typhoon. "

MKI already meet EFT at Ex-Indradhanush and Rafale many times. But these three competing each other at a joint exercise in India is significant.

Hi Kinetic, I also found the articles very interesting (will try to get the full DSI article too), especially the opinions of the French about our pilots and the MKI. I also think an exercise with latest 4.5 fighters like EF and Rafale F3 would be a great experience for IAF and a good comparison of the MKI against them.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Great share.
Thanks.

 

[gowthamraj]

So su'30 is inferior to rafale in electronic warfare

 

[black flame]

good one dude informative

 

[KEETARP]

Thanks for the article Sancho ,

But the two articles definitely have some mistakes
One -

but the French pilots (from 2000-5) assured they played their cards right in "beyond visual range" fighting, admitting that some of them have fought in "within visual range" battle, for which the SU-30 thrust vectoring and the range of its radar,

The bold part is not true , MKI never used TV in exercise .
That is info what I have

Second about Rafale , i have my doubts
Rafale never had a single face-off with MKI and for that matter F16 during whole exercise . ( Dassault's press release)
Exactly why there is no mention of RBE2 vs BARS and maneuverability of rafale v flanker .
Writer dosen't fail to highlight SPECTRA but not a single on-board EW sensor was allowed during exercise .
We have enough pics from exercise but not a single Rafale pic on runway or in the air .
French officials themselves gave the statement - Rafale was not part of exercise .

Anyhow it dosen't matter , because
Garuda2011 will give us another opportunity to test the quality of Rafale .

So su'30 is inferior to rafale in electronic warfare

Yes at present its true ,
reason being Rafale was designed as a machine with extreme network-centric capability + the superior sensor fusion gives an excellent situational awareness of the battlefield coupled with better MMI ( man-machine interface ). This is what gives Rafale an edge over Su30 .

But once integration of Mayawi coupled with powerful TMS(Threat management system) occurs it will provide sensor fusion like Rafale . And when MKI gets fully digital cockpit coupled with Indian ODL ( operational data-link)
then only true potential of Network-centric MKI can be realized . There is much more that can be packed in Mki space volume than what it carries now

 

[Sri]

Hi,
Heard a lot about Mayawi but will it be operational anytime soon? I mean will it be part of tejas MK1 or will it part of tejas mk2?

And what are its adv.

Tx
Sri