Everyone knows 'neutrals' were not actually neutral during 'regime change conspiracy': Mazari

[El Sidd]

What I said has nothing to do with shireen mazari

So you came here with premeditated intent to malign Pak army?

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,
Are you also convinced by the present condition of Governor House Punjab that there is no democracy here?
Is it martial law ??

 

[SIPRA]

Shireen Mazari is going full-throttle.

 

[crankthatskunk]

View attachment 843789

PTI leader and former human rights minister Shireen Mazari on Friday said that "now everyone knows the neutrals were not actually neutral," and went on to question whether they were "part of the conspiracy to derail Pakistan on the economic and democratic front".

The word neutral is a reference to the military, which has consistently claimed it is neutral as the country goes through political upheaval since the filing of the no-confidence motion against former premier Imran Khan on March 8.

In a press conference in Islamabad today, Mazari minced no words in her criticism of America and "those who supported it" to allegedly topple the PTI government.

Read: https://www.dawn.com/news/1689481/e...eutral-during-regime-change-conspiracy-mazari

PTI is now directly attacking the neutrals. Is it a good thing or bad?

@Patriot forever @HRK @ghazi52 @Ghazwa-e-Hind @Zibago @Zarvan @Areesh @Zaki @Jungibaaz @RescueRanger @muhammadhafeezmalik @waz @koolio @Verve @ziaulislam @farok84 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Foxtrot Alpha @krash @niaz @Indus Pakistan @blain2 @ejaz007 @El Sidd @Maarkhoor

It is definitely a good thing. They should led it out in front of the nation. Even a child in Pakistan now understands that Bajwa was definitely involved. So were judiciary. It is done as things are always done in Pakistan. No surprises at all.

I have said it on this forum well before even PTi was dislodged that Bajwa is a bigger disaster than Kiyani. it takes a lot to beat Kiyani's record.

 

[ghazi52]

He is not for sale, but available on rent !!!!11
Do you agree or not ??

 

[appliedfor]

.,.,.,
Judiciary exposed.
Media exposed.
Mehekma-e- zaraath exposed.
Political mafias exposed.
Deen farosh mullas exposed.
Wathan farosh nationalists exposed.
Bayrooni players exposed.
Androoni for sale puppets exposed.
.....

And establishment exposed too bhaii

 

[ghazi52]

And establishment exposed too bhaii

Mehekma -e-zz- ....... rest you know better.

 

[TNT]

Imran talking to the journalist said he was surprised to know that the establishment did not care for corruption, I presume the more corrupt leaders are in politics bureaucracy judiciary the easier they are to coerce. Why else would you be ok with corruption. Secondly it shows they don't care for common folk that are effected by it. Never settle for breadcrumbs that is what Imran is inculcating in public and that is why they do not accept "chori karta hai to lagata bi toh hai" leadership.

Establishment itself is the most corrupt, where do u think most of the black money ends up with?

 

[appliedfor]

"Neutrality is rascality" Gen. Hameed Gul
#امپورٹڈ_حکومت_نامنظور

 

[maverick1977]

Hate Bajwa for destroying the name of the institute of army, demoralizing its soldiers, destroying its nation, this nation will never forgive his traceheory, i will tell my generations to come about the mir jaffar of our current time

 

[Ghazwa-e-Hind]

"Neutrality is rascality" Gen. Hameed Gul
#امپورٹڈ_حکومت_نامنظور

https://twitter.com/x/status/1515683245987401731

 

[blain2]

View attachment 843789

PTI leader and former human rights minister Shireen Mazari on Friday said that "now everyone knows the neutrals were not actually neutral," and went on to question whether they were "part of the conspiracy to derail Pakistan on the economic and democratic front".

The word neutral is a reference to the military, which has consistently claimed it is neutral as the country goes through political upheaval since the filing of the no-confidence motion against former premier Imran Khan on March 8.

In a press conference in Islamabad today, Mazari minced no words in her criticism of America and "those who supported it" to allegedly topple the PTI government.

Read: https://www.dawn.com/news/1689481/e...eutral-during-regime-change-conspiracy-mazari

PTI is now directly attacking the neutrals. Is it a good thing or bad?

@Patriot forever @HRK @ghazi52 @Ghazwa-e-Hind @Zibago @Zarvan @Areesh @Zaki @Jungibaaz @RescueRanger @muhammadhafeezmalik @waz @koolio @Verve @ziaulislam @farok84 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Foxtrot Alpha @krash @niaz @Indus Pakistan @blain2 @ejaz007 @El Sidd @Maarkhoor

Imho, this is self-serving rhetoric.

The establishment exists to ensure Pakistan exists. Every SINGLE time, when there has been a disconnect between the establishment and the ruling parties, it has been over economy. So this claim "part of the conspiracy to derail Pakistan on the economic and democratic front." and making innuendo towards the establishment as being part of a "conspiracy" makes no sense at least from a military perspective.
Currently, 60% of the military expenditure is being sustained through external loans (let alone other expenditures on economic and social uplift). No establishment in any country would be comfortable with this state of affairs with the economy. So if the economy was doing great and then was "derailed" as is being claimed by the mohtarma ex-HR Minister, you can hardly put that on the nation's establishment.

Whether it is PTI or PPP or PML-N, they would all get pressure from the establishment when the economy is in dire straits.

 

[airmarshal]

Barely six months ago I would have dismmised all this as rubbish. But even I now accept the army is part of the problem. I don't mean rank and file. But the senior staff officers are resposible for this with Bajwa at number one position.

First time it hot me that Bajwa was involved in this fiasco was when at that security convention in Islamabad he openly was critical of Russia and made pro Ukraine comments? Wtf?

So we had the COAS openly going against the stated policy of this boss the PM and his FM. The official Pak policy was one of staying neutral and open to both sides of the conflict yet here was Bajwa openly tieing his mast with USA.

Yes! That was the first time I saw this naked interference from Army. It was as if Army chief has his own government.

We will have to take this away from Army leadership, put them in place and kick them out of politics forever.

What I hate is we have apologist among us who start blaming us for being anti Army. Look at my posts for over a decade on this forum. I have never criticized army but I will NOT accept Army generals running a parallel government and I have always criticized army role in politics.

The most virulent anti army crooks are currently army establishment buddies. They ran the most vicious public anti army campaigns. One of the allies, PTM, their whole basis of politics is anti army. Hussain Haqqani, the traitor in chief is currently army spokesman. So NEVER ever tell us again we are anti army. We have been betrayed by army leadership. And we are angry and feel deeply hurt.

 

[SQ8]

Imho, this is self-serving rhetoric.

The establishment exists to ensure Pakistan exists. Every SINGLE time, when there has been a disconnect between the establishment and the ruling parties, it has been over economy. So this claim "part of the conspiracy to derail Pakistan on the economic and democratic front." and making innuendo towards the establishment as being part of a "conspiracy" makes no sense at least from a military perspective.
Currently, 60% of the military expenditure is being sustained through external loans (let alone other expenditures on economic and social uplift). No establishment in any country would be comfortable with this state of affairs with the economy. So if the economy was doing great and then was "derailed" as is being claimed by the mohtarma ex-HR Minister, you can hardly put that on the nation's establishment.

Whether it is PTI or PPP or PML-N, they would all get pressure from the establishment when the economy is in dire straits.

Vehemently disagree with the phrasing of it.

The “establishment” which is essentially the senior most officers of Pakistan Army(in different capacities) throughout the years that inherits an idea borne out of Ayub Khans first violation(could argue that Iskandar Mirza instilled it but history points otherwise) to usurp power and then manipulating it to keep himself there - including exaggerating his value to the United States in order to survive. The “establishment” may represent the leadership of half a million well trained armed men but it isn’t representative of each of their individual thoughts, ideas or reputation. If anything, the establishment uses the idea that the Pakistan military is indispensable to the existence of the state and therefore they as representatives of it are above and beyond the common citizen. Almost implying a military mindset being applied to citizens all over in that every man,woman and child serves the Pakistan Army and is therefore subject to the chain of command. An ironic display of it often occurs when you see retired senior officers seeing this lost in day to day lives and the depression that takes over them knowing their comparatively powerless state.

So while an understanding of economics or statecraft is there within the establishment they are not experts otherwise long instilled reforms would have made Pakistan extremely prosperous..blaming it squarely on civilian mismanagement would imply a chicken and egg situation because each time the establishment takes over it has had the opportunity to wipe the slate clean and cultivate alternative and educated leadership. History again is testament that this is not so because educated intellectual leadership that can either equal or exceed the leadership the establishment represents triggers the insecurity gene.

You could go down to the root causes of it which combine everything from the general narrative of Pakistan’s formation to the inherited culture of the British Colonial Military. But it does inspire a myth that the Army is the ONLY institution that produces excellent leadership skills along with adaptability to any situation as an ethos which has been enforced over the years by the civilian system forcing out the educated middle class in favor of feudals or industrialists having close relationships with the military. That automatically created an insecurity among most if not the best of this leadership cadre that stems from being part of Pakistani society (and not from being military or otherwise) that anyone questioning their knowledge is an affront to their authority and thereby their reputation. They love their SMEs so long as the SME doesn’t question their leadership authority.

So this perpetual system of wanting civilian leadership that is just competent enough to do the job but never straying from the core “understanding” of this “leadership” has become a given. Additionally, the “leadership” provides a lot of leeway to itself in delivering results but fails to let democratic process do the same.
The United States is a great example of how long it takes to develop good leadership and also how fragile it can be.

Coming back to the issue of economics, the economics today are a direct result of the historical mismanagement and it includes both the corrupt dynasties and the various dictatorships with their technocrats which includes a variety of socio/geo political decision making. But the same aspect remains - the establishment expects results from a system it never allowed to stand on its own constantly for the longest time yet leaves the malaise in it untouched for what reason?
Technically Ayub could have quashed all religious extremism, or Musharraf or Zia could have destroyed ethnofascist ideals but they did not? Does it point to what I said earlier? That the “establishment” is NOT the military representative and they too need to maintain agency with their rank and file. Or that they either are or become aware once in power of the “benefits” of it and the elitism that comes with it and choose to maintain it through a “scratch my back I scratch yours” situation.

Take IK, brash and incompetent in statesmanship who is guided into electoral win in taking from a criminal cabal that wrecked Pakistan. Like an idealistic noob his main miracle engro man cannot differentiate between a MNC and a national setup while the reality check of looted wealth slaps him in the face(Ask the Phillipenes how they fared in that regard) - slowly he learns the ropes of economics while his fanfare takes a downhill turn. The “establishment” who apparently are expecting a miracle from all of IK’s boasting however are already disappointed. Come Covid and the nation focuses there so IK’s initial incompetence is forgotten to an extent and the mannerism of the better educated elements within IK’s team charms the “establishment”… they feel eventually a good thing may eventually occur.

But as IK starts getting more independent and asserts himself beyond the Kashmir narrative with constant China praising and blaming Afghanistan squarely on the Americans who apart from controlling the major economic assistance programs also lead the west the pressure builds up. The relationships spent from years in US military academic programs or deputations with Centcoms or general relationships forged over the last 20 years of the Afghan war start speaking up. IK continues to stumble through economics but is making some positive strides and his accountability drives of his own electables make supporting him difficult and so on, the criminal dynasties start connecting, messages are passed back from relationships that this brash man cannot work and really his style of leadership is “seat of my pants” echoing a certain Mr. “Mein ne keh diya hai, ho jaye ga”. IK is asked to deliver results faster but really that is lip service, everyone knows the ground reality and economic situation that will take years of extreme hardship of fix. Unfortunately, the “establishment” will never risk its reputation to say that to the people because the first people they may ask are those benefiting from the state . A revolt against the elite damages the “scratch my back , I scratch yours” system along with initial setbacks because the elite do contribute to the economy and taking them out means a damage to already “on ventilator” Pakistan. And so, IK seals his fate by going to Russia - making him indefensible and the rest is history.

So was it economics or something deeper then?
Did IK tread into geopolitical matters too much even if his economic policies were erratic if not downright bumbling like a toddler?
Was the establishment worried that the accountability drive might eventually get to the military?
I have no answers but it definitely wasn’t the economy alone and it definitely wasn’t some benevolent “establishment” out to protect Pakistan out of altruism alone.

Lets not doubt their love for country, but also not mix the idealism of a new Kakul inductee into one that has been tempered with the reality of service and the grinder that is Pakistani society. Unfortunately, the PTI supporters cannot make this balance nor can they understand why the men of the military by their culture will not correct their superiors in public as an ingrained characteristic that stems across military men from the days of Hannibal. They interpret this as cowardice and complicity instead of realizing why military service is a different culture and lifestyle yet it doesn’t mean the individual within them is dead

 

[Zibago]

View attachment 843789

PTI leader and former human rights minister Shireen Mazari on Friday said that "now everyone knows the neutrals were not actually neutral," and went on to question whether they were "part of the conspiracy to derail Pakistan on the economic and democratic front".

The word neutral is a reference to the military, which has consistently claimed it is neutral as the country goes through political upheaval since the filing of the no-confidence motion against former premier Imran Khan on March 8.

In a press conference in Islamabad today, Mazari minced no words in her criticism of America and "those who supported it" to allegedly topple the PTI government.

Read: https://www.dawn.com/news/1689481/e...eutral-during-regime-change-conspiracy-mazari

PTI is now directly attacking the neutrals. Is it a good thing or bad?

@Patriot forever @HRK @ghazi52 @Ghazwa-e-Hind @Zibago @Zarvan @Areesh @Zaki @Jungibaaz @RescueRanger @muhammadhafeezmalik @waz @koolio @Verve @ziaulislam @farok84 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Foxtrot Alpha @krash @niaz @Indus Pakistan @blain2 @ejaz007 @El Sidd @Maarkhoor

I want to apologize to Mizari for all the things I said @RealNapster