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Everyone at fault, except us

From my POV, there is a difference between asking for due process and the rule of law and refusing to even consider that JuD could be behind the Mumbai attacks.

My position has been clear - under no circumstances am I in support of creating a Pakistan Guantanamo Bay or extraordinary rendition program. If someone is alleged to have committed a crime, then they should have their day in court, and if guilty, punished to the extent the law allows for.

Pakistani society has lost a lot of faith in the system and the rule of law, and continued abuse and circumvention of the law by those with power and influence has been one of the reasons behind it.

As flawed as the system is, continuing to abuse it and circumvent it is only going to make the situation worse, and therefore at every step and in every situation the citizens of Pakistan need to demand adherence to our constitution.

I think you know as well that every Pakistani is ready to accept JuD may have had a part in Mumbai if only like you pointed out that due process of law is followed, including evidence presented in a public hearing. Only then will I allow Indians to blaspheme my country.
 
In a Philosophy of scientic thinking age there is no room for conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theory are made from one or two observations and negating all other evidence. The only solution is literacy and accurate informations, which is a tough battle for all third world countries.
 
Read the first article for few of the conspiracy theories in Pakistan. Most of theories of Indian media find support in US, UK, France, australia and south african media. Entire WORLD blames pakistan you just cant deny it. Everyone at fault except you

I am not saying everything Indian media says is true but you should also not believe pakistani media and leaders blindly.

If entire world blames us and as per GOI you have proof of Pakistans involvement than why don't you share that proof with us. No one blames us. Our president has stated quite clearly that Pakistan will take action if evidence is provided.

On this the Indians run away.
 
Kerry says no evidence found against Pakistan Govt. or ISI
Updated at: 0615 PST, Tuesday, December 16, 2008


NEW DELHI: A leading U.S. Senator John Kerry said here on Monday that no evidence had been found to link Mumbai terror attacks to the Pakistan Government or the Inter- Services Intelligence (ISI). Senator John Kerry had contested US presidential election for Democratic Party in the year 2004. He is currently on a visit to India.

Speaking to a select group of mediamen, he said Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani was playing a very positive role.

He said General Kayani fully realizes what needs to be done in the prevalent situation and so does the Director General of ISI Lt. Gen Shuja Pasha. He praised Pakistan Army and said it was a strong institution.

He said the Government of Pakistan had evolved a good strategy to fight against Taliban in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP). Senator Kerry said the military in Pakistan had done well in its fight against terrorism.

He said “We hope they continue to remain more active in the Western parts of Pakistan and with General Kayani there, I think we are building a strong foundation”.

Senator Kerry lauded the efforts of the Government of Pakistan and President Asif Ali Zardari to eradicate terrorism.

He said, “The Government of Pakistan is a democratically elected government. I was there, as an observer and I know it was a truly democratic election. So, we have to help them. They understand that this insurgency is also a threat to them”.

The Indian newspaper quoted Kerry as having said one of the first priorities of Barack Obama Administration would be to finalise an aid package for Pakistan.

“A portion of that aid will be for the military,” he said. Kerry said terrorist organisations such Lashkar-e-Tayaba also constituted a threat to Pakistan.

Kerry says no evidence found against Pakistan Govt. or ISI
 
Read the first article for few of the conspiracy theories in Pakistan. Most of theories of Indian media find support in US, UK, France, australia and south african media. Entire WORLD blames pakistan you just cant deny it. Everyone at fault except you

I am not saying everything Indian media says is true but you should also not believe pakistani media and leaders blindly.

Indian conspiracy theories have no support anywhere. There might be support from the Indian authors in the world media. But who cares what they think? What difference has it made for Pakistan? When you say ENTIRE WORLD blames Pakistan, you need to understand that you can't say that until your population increases to be the majority population of the world.
 
Kerry says no evidence found against Pakistan Govt. or ISI
Updated at: 0615 PST, Tuesday, December 16, 2008


NEW DELHI: A leading U.S. Senator John Kerry said here on Monday that no evidence had been found to link Mumbai terror attacks to the Pakistan Government or the Inter- Services Intelligence (ISI). Senator John Kerry had contested US presidential election for Democratic Party in the year 2004. He is currently on a visit to India.

Speaking to a select group of mediamen, he said Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani was playing a very positive role.

He said General Kayani fully realizes what needs to be done in the prevalent situation and so does the Director General of ISI Lt. Gen Shuja Pasha. He praised Pakistan Army and said it was a strong institution.

He said the Government of Pakistan had evolved a good strategy to fight against Taliban in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP). Senator Kerry said the military in Pakistan had done well in its fight against terrorism.

He said “We hope they continue to remain more active in the Western parts of Pakistan and with General Kayani there, I think we are building a strong foundation”.

Senator Kerry lauded the efforts of the Government of Pakistan and President Asif Ali Zardari to eradicate terrorism.

He said, “The Government of Pakistan is a democratically elected government. I was there, as an observer and I know it was a truly democratic election. So, we have to help them. They understand that this insurgency is also a threat to them”.

The Indian newspaper quoted Kerry as having said one of the first priorities of Barack Obama Administration would be to finalise an aid package for Pakistan.

“A portion of that aid will be for the military,” he said. Kerry said terrorist organisations such Lashkar-e-Tayaba also constituted a threat to Pakistan.

Kerry says no evidence found against Pakistan Govt. or ISI

Ejaz no one in India is saying that Pak government is involved. Yes they say elements in ISI are involved and Pranab Mukerjee in recent interview has said they will show that ISI is linked with LET and Jud who is involved in attacks after the investigation is complete. The main complain is why no actions is taken against Let chiefs, Dawood, Azhar Mahmood. If non state elements are involved and are operating from Pak or PaOK why arent they eliminated from there.
 
Kerry as having said one of the first priorities of Barack Obama Administration would be to finalise an aid package for Pakistan.


I am wondering what kerry is getting out of this deal?
 
Ejaz no one in India is saying that Pak government is involved. Yes they say elements in ISI are involved and Pranab Mukerjee in recent interview has said they will show that ISI is linked with LET and Jud who is involved in attacks after the investigation is complete. The main complain is why no actions is taken against Let chiefs, Dawood, Azhar Mahmood. If non state elements are involved and are operating from Pak or PaOK why arent they eliminated from there.

Action is taken in the light of evidence provided. GOI never provides the evidence they only accuse. As far as I remember even the plague in Gujrat was blamed on ISI and every other incident after that. However GOI forgets to provide the evidence or they don't have any. These are the only two logical conclusions one can make.

As far as action against the gentlemen is concerned these were arrested after the attack on Indian parliament and were kept in detention for quite some time but had to release them because no evidence was available against them. Courts don't allow and neither does law to hold people indefinitely in detention without proof. If the Indians had provided the proof we would have dealt with them a lot earlier. That is if their is any proof against them or the Indian government only makes noises but do not wish to see them trialed becuase then Pakistan would have opportunity to show to the world that it is sincere in its fight against terrorism. Also Indians don't want to eliminate these people so that they can keep on blaming their failures on them.
 
Action is taken in the light of evidence provided. GOI never provides the evidence they only accuse. As far as I remember even the plague in Gujrat was blamed on ISI and every other incident after that. However GOI forgets to provide the evidence or they don't have any. These are the only two logical conclusions one can make.

As far as action against the gentlemen is concerned these were arrested after the attack on Indian parliament and were kept in detention for quite some time but had to release them because no evidence was available against them. Courts don't allow and neither does law to hold people indefinitely in detention without proof. If the Indians had provided the proof we would have dealt with them a lot earlier. That is if their is any proof against them or the Indian government only makes noises but do not wish to see them trialed becuase then Pakistan would have opportunity to show to the world that it is sincere in its fight against terrorism. Also Indians don't want to eliminate these people so that they can keep on blaming their failures on them.

What proof is needed against Dawood, he is a international terrorist by Interpol residing in Karachi. What proof is needed against azhar mahmood ??? he was freed after the Kandahar hijacking. What proof is needed against the hijackers of Kandahar?? What proof you need to arrest leaders of LET which is banned by UN and by PAk.

You dont need India to provide more proof to arrest them they are terrorist. Pak is helping US in war on terror did it ask for proof against Osama?, did it ask for proof against Mullah Omar or Al Zahawari or AL Qiada. If you dont want to arrest someone you can give thousand excuses.
This is what I mean by dont listen to all you hear by your leaders.
As I have been writing in my previous post arresting these people will help PAK in reducing terror in its territory.
 
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What proof is needed against Dawood, he is a international terrorist by Interpol residing in Karachi. What proof is needed against azhar mahmood ??? he was freed after the Kandahar hijacking. What proof is needed against the hijackers of Kandahar?? What proof you need to arrest leaders of LET which is banned by UN and by PAk.

You dont need India to provide more proof to arrest them they are terrorist. Pak is helping US in war on terror did it ask for proof against Osama?, did it ask for proof against Mullah Omar or Al Zahawari or AL Qiada. If you dont want to arrest someone you can give thousand excuses.
This is what I mean by dont listen to all you hear by your leaders.
As I have been writing in my previous post arresting these people will help PAK in reducing terror in its territory.

Don't you feel the least bit of "a stupid" to compare India to the US, eh girl scout? Our relationship with the US on the WoT has nothing to do with India nor is it any of your concern. Once your 3rd world nation makes provoking gestures of war over a few Indian terrorists, you are damn right we want proof since our government is already doing you a favor and arresting people left and right to keep things civil. Stop biting the hand that feeds you results.
 
Action is taken in the light of evidence provided. GOI never provides the evidence they only accuse. As far as I remember even the plague in Gujrat was blamed on ISI and every other incident after that. However GOI forgets to provide the evidence or they don't have any. These are the only two logical conclusions one can make.

Evidence had been shared earlier as well but on the basis of that the GoP failed to do much.

Wait till the probe gets over i believe this time India will make sure evidence reaches Pakistan since its unlikely that any military action will be taken now against Pakistan by India.

But the question is
How much evidence is needed to convince GoP?

Would they accept Sat phone records,and the trace of email sent from Pakistan and other such evidence?

Would the allegation be made that these are fabricated by India?

What is needed to convince a Pakistani?
 
Hon Members,

I am copying another post by Irfan Hussein for the benefit of those who have not read it. It is not that I necessarily agree with what he says; it is that we must have different views on the subject.

IMO only way to form an objective and rational view on what is best for Pakistan is to read and analyse opinions of as many people as possible. That is why, despite having to read some very unpleasant posts by Indian members, I would prefer to have them on the forum. If every one has the same view point, what is point of a discussion forum? I just hope that some of our bigoted anchors such as Hamed Mir also read the posts. Last night in his Capital Talk, Hamid Mir was discussing the Shiv Sena killers and asking why UN doesn’t put them on the terror list. Naturally all the participants in his talk show agreed with him. No one asked that the Shiv Sena killer were involved in the murder of Indian Muslims and did not cross the border to kill Muslims in Pakistan as LET is alleged to have done in India.




Life in a parallel universe




By Irfan Husain

IF you do a Google search with ‘CIA + RAW + Mossad + Mumbai attacks’ as your parameters, you will get about 51,200 results.

So clearly, there are thousands out there who have developed elaborate conspiracy theories to explain who was behind the recent terrorist atrocity in Mumbai. Some of these theories have even appeared in the letters column of this newspaper. Sadly, Hamid Gul, the ex-head of the ISI, is one of the chief proponents of such hare-brained theories. The fact that he rose to become a three-star general makes one wonder about the promotion policies prevalent in our army.

It would seem that millions do not accept the evidence available, and are seeking to fit in the attacks with their world view in which nothing is as it seems; where we are all manipulated by forces that pull the strings from behind the scenes; and where we are ultimately helpless to change anything. In this parallel universe of smoke and shadows, reality shifts according to your point of view, and there is no such thing as objective truth.

Over the last week, my inbox has been flooded with at least 300 emails regarding the last two columns I wrote about the Mumbai attacks. I have been attacked for being naïve, as well as a traitor. But I have been supported by other readers for calling a spade a spade. So clearly, there has been a very strong reaction to the gruesome events across the border.

I had suggested that many Pakistanis are in denial about the extent of the terror networks active on our soil, and the threat they pose to our country. And while we have become accustomed to the growing mayhem they cause within our borders, other countries are not going to put up with their activities when their citizens are slaughtered by them. Despite the conclusive evidence that the recent attacks were launched from Pakistan by Pakistanis, many angry readers have asked me for proof. Others have accused me of betraying my country. Luckily, most of these diatribes have been poorly worded and argued, thus absolving me of the duty to respond.

Nevertheless, it is a matter for concern that so many Pakistanis are simply not willing to face the truth. For unless they do, they will not demand the change of policy and direction that gave birth to these terror groups in the first place.

However, it is important to remember that Pakistanis are not the only ones given to spinning elaborate conspiracy theories to explain the most straightforward events. For example, millions are convinced to this day that the 9/11 attacks were caused by the CIA and/or Mossad. I even came across a guy who said the Japanese were behind the attacks to avenge the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Millions believe that Princess Di was killed by the British secret service at the behest of the royal family because she was going to marry a Muslim.

Most of these fantasies are harmless parlour games that occupy people with lots of time on their hands. But when a country emerges as a focal point for the global jihad, and people across the world are killed as a result of this terror campaign, clearly responsible leaders are duty bound to take action. And if the leadership of the country concerned is unable or unwilling to act, what is the rest of the world supposed to do?

In our case, the establishment responds to international opinion and pressure by pleading that Pakistan is the biggest victim of terrorism, as President Zardari has said in a recent op-ed piece in the New York Times. This is certainly true, but what are our leaders doing to crush the monsters we have created ourselves? Surely it is not enough to elicit sympathy for our victim status without doing something to change it.

Since it is not easy to close our eyes to the reality of terrorism in Pakistan, given the grisly toll it exacts almost daily, many Pakistanis find all kinds of reasons to explain and justify it. These range from Palestine to Iraq to Afghanistan, and are seen by both right and left as a legitimate response to western attacks on Muslim lands. Closer to home, the conflict over Kashmir is used to legitimise the actions of groups like the Lashkar-i-Taiba.

What many Pakistanis forget is that these terror groups are more lethal for us than they are for other countries. How, for example, would the LeT have furthered the cause of Kashmir by vicious attacks on soft targets in Mumbai? The fact is that in purely tactical terms, the killing of innocent civilians does not gain any cause any support.

The ongoing crackdown against a handful of known terrorist leaders and groups will, I fear, result in little except to divert foreign pressure. We have seen that in the past, the same suspects were picked up for brief stints in jail or house arrest, and released as soon as the crisis was over.

One problem that we do not examine closely enough is the fact that since Zia’s destructive decade in the 1980s, a climate of religious extremism has come to dominate the national agenda. In this environment, a generation of Pakistanis has grown up thinking it is perfectly acceptable to persecute religious minorities, marginalise women and kill in the name of Islam.

It is this acceptance of an extremist mindset that has created limitless space for terror groups to thrive in. Add to this outlook the disputed border with Kashmir and the porous (and also disputed) frontier with Afghanistan, and you get a scenario for sanctioned mayhem. The final ingredient in this lethal cocktail is a tottering economy that is simply not capable of generating gainful employment for millions of young Pakistanis.

But the rest of world is not interested in these problems. It wants Pakistan to crack down on terror groups now, and put them out of commission. However, given the lack of a national consensus and the political resolve needed to combat this menace, it is difficult to see the PPP-led government taking strong action, especially if the army is not solidly onside.

And here’s the rub: for over two decades, the military and our intelligence agencies have been using many of these militants to fight their proxy wars. Many retired officers have developed personal and ideological links with the groups they handled while in uniform. To expect all this to change overnight is to demand too much of the fledgling democratic government.

irfan.husain@gmail.com

DAWN - Irfan Hussain; December 13, 2008
 
Extremism will harm Pakistan
Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON: Pakistan will be the ultimate loser – both economically and politically – if immediate steps are not taken to curb extremism.
This was the consensus of about 100 prominent Pakistani-Americans which included scholars, physicians, former World Bank officials, businessmen, intellectuals and members of the religious minorities in Pakistan.
This unprecedented gathering was organised by the Pakistan Embassy in Washington to see how Pakistanis living in the United States want their home country to respond to the current challenges.
The immediate cause for this town hall meeting was the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks which, according to one participant, caused ‘much embarrassment and humiliation’ to the Pakistanis living in America.
Shahid Javed Burki, a former vice president of the World Bank and a former finance minister, told the audience how violence, uncertainty and lack of planning was affecting the Pakistani economy.
‘I have never been more concerned about Pakistan’s economic future as I am now,’ he warned.
Mr Burki said that Pakistan’s gross domestic product is expected to grow by only 2 to 2.5 per cent during the current financial year and not by 3.5 to 4.5 per cent predicted by the State Bank.
He predicted ‘a drastic contraction of the economy,’ leading to a ‘very sharp increase in urban unemployment and in the incidence of poverty.’
Mr Burki warned that a recent $7.5 billion aid package that Pakistan signed with the IMF will help the government deal with emergency economic needs but ultimately this arrangement too will have a negative impact on the economy.
Two basic conditions of this package — reducing expenditure and increasing interest rate — will affect development, he warned.
Mr Burki said that the government needs to take a very serious view of the situation and then decide what to do. ‘But, unfortunately, the government has not yet defined its priorities.’
Assad R. Akhter, legislative director for a senior Democratic congressman, warned that if extremism and violence continued unabated, the US Congress may not pass a proposed $15 billion, 10-year aid package for Pakistan.
Mr Akhter said that events like the attacks in Mumbai cause many in the United States to ‘see Pakistan as a country that cannot be trusted.’
Muneer Ahmad, a professor of law at the prestigious Georgetown University, said that the new Pakistani government will have to let the world see that it was different from the previous government. ‘But that difference is yet to be seen.’
Akmal Aleemi, a senior journalist who worked for Voice of America for more than 30 years, warned that the Pakistani nation had been raised on a ‘theories of hate and falsehood’ and unless it’s corrected the country will never overcome extremism and terrorism.
Ambassador Husain Haqqani, who held this first-ever town hall meeting at the embassy, said Pakistan wanted to be a responsible partner of the international community.
Mr Haqqani said that that an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis repel and reject violent extremism. He stressed the need to fight extremists without ‘bowing to outside pressure and without allowing others to harm our institutions.’
‘The elected government has made it clear that the state of Pakistan was in no way linked to the Mumbai crisis — we have not bowed to any outside pressure and at the same time also demanded evidence for allegations of any Pakistani involvement,’ the ambassador said.
 

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