ENOUGH!

[Contrarian]

After feeling a bit down for a couple of weeks, however, reading the sentiments of Ordinary Pakistanis, and seeing and hearing first hand of what the people of Pakistan, swat, Nwfp, Karachi, lahore, even FATA think about what is happening to our country,

I am filled again with HOPE.

I believe we can and we will overcome this menace.

Now is not the time to immerse ourselves in discussion on which of our stategic enemies is funding and equipping them. ONce we have annihilated this menace, then we will go to such countries, and demand an explanation for the wrongs they have done to us and compensation for their actions.

Until such time, we must fight. And fight we will. All of us, lawyers, teachers, labourers, policemen and women, army, maulvis and intellectuals, the pious and sinners, landlords and peasants, our young men and women, we have a duty to fulfill and we shall do so.

To all those thinking that the Pakistani people will be critical of any army action this time, that is not so.

Pakistanis are in essence a peaceful people, ever willing to turn the other cheek, even to those who have wronged them. But, to use a cliche, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. We have realised that these degenerates do not understand the language of dialogue, reconciliation and tolerance.

Laaton kay bhoot, baaton say nahin mantay.

While i wish what you say comes to pass.

There is however a problem in my mind. The people of Pakistan-rural people especially are very gullible and partial to what they think is their 'duty' for Islam. They are the people who will actually support Taliban without wondering whether Taliban is actually Islamic or not. You also have to see that its these kinds of people who form the ground level cadre for the Taliban. Ajmal Kasab for example, a young man swayed by wrong teachings of Islam by the LeT. There are thousands more of the sort-the ones bombing in Pakistan.

For a start the Pakistani government has to find a way to show the nation that Taliban is NOT Islamic. This is Taliban's biggest strength-that people think that they are fighting for an Islamic cause. And with due respect to Pakistani's, a good number of Pakistani's are orthodox and intolerant courtesy the decades of promoting religious extremism by previous Pakistani Presidents. That has built the ground base of support for these Talibs.

I dont see that happening. Taliban is an ideology, it needs more than just military action to be swatted out. It needs Madrassa's that sprung up on Saudi Funding to be closed down completely. It needs new madrassa's/schools to be opened up in which different subjects are taught, different content. It needs reform. You cant kill Taliban militarily, your fighting something that has taken decades to build in Pakistan-supporters. Your basically trying to change your society here. It needs massive effort. If you militarily kill Taliban, another group with a different name but same ideas of Islam might appear.

 

[Patriot]

Agreed. But can you clearly state what you offer instead, and why the Pakistani Army should be asked to fight for it?

If Pakistani People want Islamic Law they can vote for Religious Parties otherwise they will have to live with Liberal Parties which have more a lot more support then Religious Parties.

 

[DarkStar]

I'm not in the business of offering anyone anything new, except for a bullet in the head of the terrorists.

There's nothing wrong with the status quo. The roots of this political violence lie in matters beyond our borders. No matter what system we offer these terrorists, they will find fault in it. Hell, they claim Saudi Arabia is an Unislamic State. Basically, it's their way, or the highway.

Pakistan needs to concentrate on education, development, forming policies that stabilise the economy, and hope in time our political system attains the maturity that our young democracy desperately needs.

 

[DarkStar]

Malaymishra...you must have this totally wrong. The rural people of Punjab, Sindh, etc. are not very islamic at all. They have their traditions, but they are the least people to wander into extremism, or believe in the violence that the Taliban preach.

It is the towns and cities which are more conservative, and Islamised.

As for Saudi funded madrassas, they are already teachign a strictly anti terrorism theology. The Saudis are way ahead on this than any other Islamic Scholars.

Most madrassas are privately funded, from donations by simple mosque goers. Sometimes, those running some of the Madaaris do visit the UAE, Europe, USA to raise funds, but the number is inconsequential.

There maybe only a handful of madaaris funded by the Saudis, and those are not the madaaris creating problems, namely the mushrooming Deobandi madrassas, which are definitely NOT funded by the Saudis (maybe not for more than 20 years).

The Deobandi madaaris are not training jihadis, nor teaching terrorism. But the students are susceptible to the TAliban message, because they share the same basic school of thought. It is easier to recruit a Deobandi student of a Madrassah, then one of the Barelwi or AhlHadeeth sect.

We have seen some effects of this, in the closure of certain madaaris belonging to teh barelwis and Ahl hadeeth in area under Taliban control, as well as takeover of their mosques, and a warning by the Taliban a few months ago to leave their areas, join their movement, or prepare for war.

If this violence ever reached Punjab proper, I foresee conflict between the TAliban/Lashkar e Jhangvi/Harkat and the militants of Lashkar e Taiba/Jamat Dawa and maybe even Hizbul Mujahideen/Jamate Islami. It is unclear which side the Hizb will fall towards, but it seems that they will opt for the govt.

 

[Solomon2]

Dude we're not a bunch of fools...If Pakistani People want Islamic Law they can vote for Religious Parties otherwise they will have to live with Liberal Parties which have more a lot more support then Religious Parties.

Is that how it happened in Swat?

 

[Xeric]

People here were still in denial that some Pakistani people will still support the Talibans, well let me tell you, they have been awakened and are now clear about the truth and are now supportive of military action.

Someone asked a question in private and i answered him with this, wanted to share it with the participants:

As for the matter at hand (the Taliban issue), initially the scenario was quite different then what it is now-first our people thought that the movements in Balochistan, Wana, Swat etc etc are 'right', they thought that they are just a bunch of poor, suppressed chaps asking for more autonomy, taking up arms just to make the other countrymen listen to their cries and resorting to harsh measure when they were threatened.

Our nation thought that there is no need to handle these people with force and they Army should not be utilized for these purposes. Lal Mosque episode was not required, Balochistan operation was just another measure to increase Army's influence in the area, construction of cantts were just a tool to intimidate Balochi people.

We thought that the demand of shariat was legit and military action was not required, the only problem area that we considered as a problem area was Wana and surroundings, but still that too was not handled as it should have been.

Having said this, now the situation has changed alot, the nation has been educated (though by inadvisable measure-the hard way i mean) and it knows now that anything from Balochistan insurgency to TTP and TNSM are just a bunch of idiots being played at the hands of foreign powers, now as shown tby the 'enough' thread and as being displayed in media the people are ready and acclimatized for a decisive military action by the LEAs. So atleast i am thankful to them that they have opened their minds and have embraced the truth. A few friends of mine who were absolutely opposing military actions are now begging to kill the AHs with bare hands.

As i have mentioned in the very start that fortunately the general opinion of our nation has changed (and military comes from the nation), and as of today, luckily we have never been so clear about the face of the enemy as ever before, so with the nation behind us in support i personally don't feel that any problem of someone still getting on the wrong track.

As for someones concerns over rural areas and gullible minds there, i think already enough have been said in the media and they also know what is wrong and what not is.

Some credit goes to Sufi Muhammad's 180 degree turn and some to the media for showing the true picture of terror, and (i dont want to say this, but...) MQM for its separation from the deal thing!

We all know now that the deal was a wrong move and are ready to rectify it!

 

[Xeric]

O.K., you've decided to speak out against the Taliban. But to really fight them, doesn't there have to be someone or something you are willing to speak out for as an alternative? The Taliban, after all, are promising the perfect Islamic state. Pakistanis are Muslims. Why should the Taliban be opposed? Doesn't that mean favoring values other than Islam? Why shouldn't people and Army join with the Taliban and get everything over with quickly and avoid as much bloodshed as possible?

Agreed. But can you clearly state what you offer instead, and why the Pakistani Army should be asked to fight for it?

Is that how it happened in Swat?

Guud TROLLING, keep it up!

 

[Patriot]

Is that how it happened in Swat?

and you can see the result.Majority of the nation is asking for some action against Talibans.Watch Pakistani News Channel..There are live shows and people are saying we should destroy Talibans.Pakistan Army and GOP has got Nation confidence by showing true colors of Taliban after this peace deal!

 

[Contrarian]

Malaymishra...you must have this totally wrong. The rural people of Punjab, Sindh, etc. are not very islamic at all. They have their traditions, but they are the least people to wander into extremism, or believe in the violence that the Taliban preach.

It is the towns and cities which are more conservative, and Islamised.

As for Saudi funded madrassas, they are already teachign a strictly anti terrorism theology. The Saudis are way ahead on this than any other Islamic Scholars.

Most madrassas are privately funded, from donations by simple mosque goers. Sometimes, those running some of the Madaaris do visit the UAE, Europe, USA to raise funds, but the number is inconsequential.

There maybe only a handful of madaaris funded by the Saudis, and those are not the madaaris creating problems, namely the mushrooming Deobandi madrassas, which are definitely NOT funded by the Saudis (maybe not for more than 20 years).

The Deobandi madaaris are not training jihadis, nor teaching terrorism. But the students are susceptible to the TAliban message, because they share the same basic school of thought. It is easier to recruit a Deobandi student of a Madrassah, then one of the Barelwi or AhlHadeeth sect.

We have seen some effects of this, in the closure of certain madaaris belonging to teh barelwis and Ahl hadeeth in area under Taliban control, as well as takeover of their mosques, and a warning by the Taliban a few months ago to leave their areas, join their movement, or prepare for war.

If this violence ever reached Punjab proper, I foresee conflict between the TAliban/Lashkar e Jhangvi/Harkat and the militants of Lashkar e Taiba/Jamat Dawa and maybe even Hizbul Mujahideen/Jamate Islami. It is unclear which side the Hizb will fall towards, but it seems that they will opt for the govt.

Thanks. Missing that function on the board.

I agree that Hizb will opt for the govt. They are more dependent on the Army for their needs than Taliban.

 

[Kasrkin]

Nope, they are hardly 'dependent' on the Army but they do represent a more nationalistic outlook. The Indians will undoubtedly use this as an opportunity to label every irregular military group that is made up of Muslims a ‘medieval terrorist organization,’ but there are a great many differences, differences that have to be exploited in order to overcome this repugnant strand. I’ve seen Hizb’s leader speak on TV, he certainly does not empathize with the suicide bombing and Pakistan soldier beheading Taliban; his and his organization’s aims are grounded as being limited to opposing Indian rule in Kashmir, not undermining Pakistan’s security or dominating the Muslim world. They're not likely to join up with the Taliban, and there are no reports hinting that they might've done so this far. In fact the guy actually expressed his disgust with the Taliban/tribal insurrection and stated that they were bringing a bad name to his freedom cause in Kashmir. Some will certainly join up, particularly the more fascist-ly sectarian oriented groups but others won't, even if its just because they feel the Taliban won't win and then they too will have hell to pay.

 

[Solomon2]

I find the answers I'm getting not quite satisfactory. Will they be enough to satisfy the Pakistani Army?

 

[Task Force Black]

I hope any 'imperialists' reading this don't mind the factual inaccuracy- the important thing is that it sells better this way!

Delighted dear chap, delighted

 

[S-2]

Araz made this comment on another thread here and I think it sufficiently relevant to "enough!" that my reply will adequately fit here also-

"This time though there should be no deals and the matter must be finished at all costs."

Brave words but you'd best think what this entails. "... at all costs..." commits to any and every resource. The cost in disrupted lives and income-individual and nat'l shall be high. We know this from Bajaur. Where they've had time, the militants have fortified and fought to retain their hold.

Bajaur has generated 500,000 refugees in Peshawar through the entire winter and now into the spring. This has been added by the influx of those who won't tolerate SWAT, and likely now Buner too. Think of those numbers.

Judging by Loe Sam, they'll be the survivors. There will be those who don't survive by the actions of the state-however correct or mistaken or whatever else. Can you fight that battle and at least hold your ground? You know...the information war that to date you've abysmally lost?

You'll need to find a way to regain the high ground despite likely collateral damage.

Here's the worst part- "...the matter must be finished..."

Explain please the stamina in your nat'l determination that's going to carry your brave words through Khyber, Kurram, N. & S. Waziristan, and eastern Baluchistan to include, obviously, Quetta?

Because that's what it'll take to finish and those lands will be Bajaur x 20. Brace yourself. You've no idea what awaits you in Waziristan. This war will be ages. Years easily. Decades probably.

Get ready.

 

[Solomon2]

if you see injustice or wrong then change it with your hands and if you can't change it with your hands then speak out against it and if you are unable to speak out against it then hate in your hearts

Darkstar, since you're stuck in Brussells, do you think there is more you can do to speak out against the Taliban? Could you, for example, advocate that Pakistanis endorse U.S. drone strikes against the Talibs? That Pakistan should seek Indian help in eliminating the Talib threat, if such would be constructive?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Could you, for example, advocate that Pakistanis endorse U.S. drone strikes against the Talibs? That Pakistan should seek Indian help in eliminating the Talib threat, if such would be constructive?

Since such actions, the latter especially (if implying Indian military operations on Pakistani soil) would be extremely counter productive, its a moot point IMO.