'Empowered' French team likely to visit India for Rafale deal

[sancho]

couple questions here:

1. what variant(s) of the Rafale are we going for ?

2. does the deal include the Rafale-M naval variant as well, if so, what's the qty breakdown between naval/AF versions ?

3. what is the actual unit cost as it stands now ? wiki isn't very helpful

1) Rafale F3+ with B and C varients => single and twin seater
2) No there are no naval versions, since this is an IAF deal
3) Nobody can tell you what the cost for India is, since it includes several variables, for example what the system cost for the fighters, including training, licence production, ToT as well as customizations are. All we can determine, is the possible fly away cost, since there are official figures of the French government.

- 68.8 million Euro (82,7 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a single
- 74 million Euro (89 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a twin seater

These figures however include 19% taxes, which don't apply to sales outside of the EU, for Indian that should bring the costs down to:

- 55.7 million Euro (67 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a single
- 59,9 million Euro (72 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a twin seater

 

[gau8av]

1) Rafale F3+ with B and C varients => single and twin seater
2) No there are no naval versions, since this is an IAF deal
3) Nobody can tell you what the cost for India is, since it includes several variables, for example what the system cost for the fighters, including training, licence production, ToT as well as customizations are. All we can determine, is the possible fly away cost, since there are official figures of the French government.

- 68.8 million Euro (82,7 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a single
- 74 million Euro (89 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a twin seater

These figures however include 19% taxes, which don't apply to sales outside of the EU, for Indian that should bring the costs down to:

- 55.7 million Euro (67 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a single
- 59,9 million Euro (72 million Dollar at todays exchange rate) for a twin seater

but why 2 variants (single/double seat) in the first place, I imagine having a WSO manning the 'guns' is always preferable to a single pilot doing it all in terms of operational effectiveness ?

is it a cost thing or are different squadrons to be configured completely differently to suit their respective roles ?

 

[sancho]

but why 2 variants (single/double seat) in the first place, I imagine having a WSO manning the 'guns' is always preferable to a single pilot doing it all in terms of operational effectiveness ?
is it a cost thing or are different squadrons to be configured completely differently to suit their respective roles ?

The twin seat offers advantages for training, strike roles or simply by sharing the workload. It was expected that each squad includes 16 single and 2 twin seaters, but with Rafale twin seaters proving itself well in strike missions, IAF might add some more twin seaters.

 

[gau8av]

The twin seat offers advantages for training, strike roles or simply by sharing the workload. It was expected that each squad includes 16 single and 2 twin seaters, but with Rafale twin seaters proving itself well in strike missions, IAF might add some more twin seaters.

still, what's the point of the single seat version if the twin offers significant advantages in a combat situation, cost ?

or will some be configured purely for interception roles while others for AShW, CAS, escort, deep interdiction etc ? and aren't those just a matter of different payloads or do they require vastly different training ?

 

[sancho]

still, what's the point of the single seat version if the twin offers significant advantages in a combat situation, cost ?

or will some be configured purely for interception roles while others for AShW, CAS, escort, deep interdiction etc ? and aren't those just a matter of different payloads or do they require vastly different training ?

Twin seaters as said offer advantages in "certain areas", but for basic A2A roles you like interception you only need single seaters. Of course the lower costs are a point too, but they all will be multi role fighters and able to be used in any roles. It's just a matter of the mission requirement, what mix of single or twin seaters will be used, but any squad will offer the same capability.

 

[gau8av]

Twin seaters as said offer advantages in "certain areas", but for basic A2A roles you like interception you only need single seaters. Of course the lower costs are a point too, but they all will be multi role fighters and able to be used in any roles. It's just a matter of the mission requirement, what mix of single or twin seaters will be used, but any squad will offer the same capability.

I see, thanks.

and sorry if I've missed your other inputs in other threads on it but what are your thoughts on dumping the rafale and going for MIG-35 or Su 35 ?

 

[sancho]

I see, thanks.

and sorry if I've missed your other inputs in other threads on it but what are your thoughts on dumping the rafale and going for MIG-35 or Su 35 ?

The Mig is an outdated design and not even fully developed yet, both reasons why it was rejected. The Su 35 doesn't offer much that we wouldn't get trough the MKI upgrade anyway, so both are out of question.

 

[Tshering22]

There loss we have options.but I don't thing they will do that
In defense industry perception of the your product matters if Mmrca dropped the reputation of Dassault Rafale will be down.

Parikkar clarified that Euro fighter is out of race. In addition if the deal doesn't clear this time, MMRCA will be scrapped and we'll go for more advanced MKIs.

Good choice to fall back on. Thsnkfully it wasn't something else.

 

[mike2000]

'Empowered' indeed. The french should just sign this deal, else they should make way for our typhoon Eurofighter to join the game.

 

[SirHatesALot]

This deal is dead.

 

[Hindustani78]

Parikkar clarified that Euro fighter is out of race. In addition if the deal doesn't clear this time, MMRCA will be scrapped and we'll go for more advanced MKIs.

Good choice to fall back on. Thsnkfully it wasn't something else.

Be it Eurofigher or Rafale in both cases the contract will go to France and EU

 

[Tshering22]

Be it Eurofigher or Rafale in both cases the contract will go to France and EU

EFT's prime contractor is Germany. Dassault had a very small share in that military consortium. Not to mention that Rafale production line will close.
Seriously, what are the French playing at?

They're desperate and still they do this. Imagine if they were rolling in foreign sales what they would do.

 

[sancho]

EFT's prime contractor is Germany. Dassault had a very small share in that military consortium. Not to mention that Rafale production line will close..

- France does not participate in the EF in any way!
- Only EADS Germany is part of the EF consortium!
- EADS France had a stack of Dassault shares, not the other way around!
- Rafale production line with current French orders will go on beyond 2020!

 

[Hindustani78]

EFT's prime contractor is Germany. Dassault had a very small share in that military consortium. Not to mention that Rafale production line will close.
Seriously, what are the French playing at?

They're desperate and still they do this. Imagine if they were rolling in foreign sales what they would do.

French state and Airbus play chess with Dassault shares | Ares

A 20-year convention has been signed between the French state and the Marcel Dassault family industrial group (GIMD) to ensure that they maintain control of the aircraft group that makes the Rafale combat aircraft, the Neuron RPAS (remotely piloted air system) and the Falcon civilian business jets.

GIMD currently holds 50.55% of the shares of Dassault Aviation, a company considered strategic as the Rafale is the airborne element of France's nuclear strike attack capability.

The convention, revealed on Nov. 28, would give the French state right to preempt any share sale made by GIMD in Dassault Aviation if the sale meant that GIMD's holding in the aircraft company fell under 40%, a figure that represents the majority of the capital given double voting rights.

At the same time the Airbus Group sold 8% of its 46.32% share in Dassault Aviation back to the company for €794m following up on its declaration in July that it would progressively withdraw its share holding in Dassault Aviation. Airbus also announced it would sell a second lot of 10% of its shares before June 2015, half of which would most likely be bought by GIMD. This should step-by-step put an end to an ironic situation which saw the same company holding interests in both Eurofighter and Rafale which are generally stiff competitors for any combat fighter contracts.

The remaining 3.13% of the shares in Dassault Aviation are publicly held.

In addition to Dassault Aviation, GIMD owns Dassault Systèmes (CATIA and other product design and 3D solutions), Artcurial (auction house), Château Dassault (wine), Groupe Figaro (media), and S.A.B.C.A (Société Anonyme Belge de Constructions Aéronautiques).

- France does not participate in the EF in any way!
- Only EADS Germany is part of the EF consortium!
- EADS France had a stack of Dassault shares, not the other way around!
- Rafale production line with current French orders will go on beyond 2020!

Be it Eurofighter or Rafale , its NATO technology

Airbus sells part of Dassault back to French planemaker| Reuters