Egyptian negotiations during the PAS2019 exhibition to contract JF17 fighter jets with the transfer

[CHACHA"G"]

After reading some posts from some "Brothers" (lol) on this thread I beg to Egp Govt not to buy 3rd grade , useless , toothless , light aircraft (only best for training) JF-17 …………
To Pakistani posters , let it go brothers , it wont worth , safe your time & energy , some people and countries are high in their egos let them stay high..

 

[Basel]

After reading some posts from some "Brothers" (lol) on this thread I beg to Egp Govt not to buy 3rd grade , useless , toothless , light aircraft (only best for training) …………
To Pakistani posters , let it go brothers , it wont worth , safe your time & energy , some people are countries are high in their egos let them stay high..

I support your opinion.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

American jets were much better than Soviet jets. Especially during the 1973 and 1970 wars.


Lol, Israels lost over 100 in the Yom kippur war alone. These facts are highly incorrect.

PAF fighters flew arab jets, most of which were soviet.

 

[Keysersoze]

As i said before, the Soviet aircraft were at that time being outpaced by the west. 5 Migs piloted by Soviets were all shot down while inflicting no losses. F-4s outclassed Mig-21 and mig-17s by a large margin.

Also pilot training was awful

Wow, wiki as source that shows your level of intellect.

Create another thread for Arab Failure against Israel and stay on topic here.



Arabs due to their incompetence have failed against tiny size Israel since its inception and they talk big about facing it and thinking India is inferior to Israel, if they had to face India instead of Israel they had lost more land to it.

No no wiki can e useful resource if used correctly
Please observe

The Egyptian Army Air Service was formed in 1932, and became an independent air force in 1937. It had little involvement in the Second World War. From 1948 to 1973 it took part, with generally mediocre results, in four separate wars with Israel, as well as the quasi-War of Attrition. It also supported the Egyptian Army during the North Yemen Civil War and the Libyan–Egyptian War of 1977. From 1977 to 2011 it saw virtually no combat, but has participated in numerous exercises, including Operation Bright Star.

I have highlighted the relevant bits. The EAF have been consistently mediocre.

Egyptian Air Force: Repeating Past Mistakes
Since the Peace Accords with Israel the Egyptian Air Force has gone through several changes. What was predominantly a Soviet equipped Air Force suddenly had to realign its procurement policies away from the Soviet Union and towards the West.

However it also had to keep several Soviet types such as the MiG – 21 in service as a stop-gap measure until it could induct newer, better, and most importantly supported fast jets after it cut relations with its former sponsor in favour of the United States. In order to help rebuild its Armed Forces $1.3 Billion of US government budget was allocated to Egypt for the past 40 odd years.

What was planned though did not happen what did is somewhat perplexing to the outside observer and angering to anyone who has heard of something called logistics. Without getting bogged down in the how or why of history or procurement processes for the sake of brevity and to avoid an increase in blood pressure, Egypt at the turn of the century was operating six different fast jets from four different sources not including light attack aircraft and advanced trainers (the latter two being another headache).

Plane spotters delight
The backbone of the EAF past the year 2000 was around 200 Lockheed F – 16 Falcons of various Blocks. In addition to that rather large fleet they also operated dozens of Mikoyan MiG – 21, Chengdu F – 7, McDonell Douglas F – 4 Phantom II, Dassault Mirage V, and Dassault Mirage 2000 fighter jets. In total the EAF was operating over 400 fighter jets before 2012. So what’s wrong with that?

It’s hard to pick somewhere to begin given that the differences have consequences from the top down. We’ll start with training of technicians and pilots or anyone generally hands on with the air craft. Instead of training infrastructure for one or two similar types the Air Force had to support half a dozen, each with different standards, procedures, and techniques meaning that it would require a fair bit of retraining for conversion from one type to another which creates a force that is not very flexible to say the least. Career prospects would be limited to the type someone serves on as the Air Force itself will have very little incentive to retrain personnel.

The Egyptian Air Force has a very odd fixation with differentiating sources of armament. Although understandable through a political lens it makes less sense when they stop prioritising some of their most ‘secure’ platforms in favour of something completely different and usually less capable. To illustrate my point lets take the example of the Mirage in Egyptian service. They invested heavily in repair and overhaul facilities for no more than six squadrons of fighters that were due to be retired in fifteen years or less and even went as far as upgrading two squadrons of Mirage V in 2003 (a fighter at the fringe of the AF and currently held in tactical reserve with the proposition of them being sold to Lebanon) while neglecting the forces backbone that is set to remain in service until 2040 at least.

Don’t ask about the colour scheme…
The same could be said of the MiG – 21 some of which were upgraded as recently as 2008! A fighter which is currently out of service after an excruciatingly long time in the Air Force’s ranks and one that reached obsolescence decades ago. The point I’m trying to get at is that eventually you come to a situation where in order to keep the air craft on the fringe going to support a frankly bloated squadron number you neglect the backbone of the Air Force and operate a mixture that is incredibly expensive to maintain as a whole in an Armed Forces low on funds.

A far larger problem is that doctrine and organisation was influenced by equipment rather than the other way round and as a result the Air Defence often had to pick up the slack for the Air Force.

I warned you not to ask…
Not putting your eggs in one basket is understandable however it is a double-edged sword. In an attempt to be sanction proof the EAF has repeatedly underachieved at becoming what it should be, a leading Air Force in the MENA region.

They’re underachieving not only because of the nightmares that operating several types brings but because of their inability to network all of them into a cohesive fighting force. Network-Centric warfare has gone from a pretty good idea to a buzzword in recent years however it is something that is essential and achievable.

The difficulty in networking all these different types essentially meant that Egypt in real terms operated several air forces at the same time and this is the mistake they seem to be making again with the introduction of the MiG – 35 and also presents another missed opportunity for the EAF to achieve its potential.

Same plane two colours…like a visual way of proving my point




By 2020 the EAF is set to complete the process of retiring its aging aircraft including early F – 16 A/B, Mirage 2000, and Mirage V fighters jets with the MiG – 21, F – 7, and F -4 all being fully retired or placed in tactical reserve already. In what I had previously dubbed Air Force 2020 the EAF was set to field 200 odd F – 16s and 24 Rafale fighters, certainly nothing to scoff at given Egypt also operates a rather healthy number of E-2C AWAC platforms and what should have been the basis for an eventual forward-looking cutting edge force.

With that mix they could comfortably (and currently are) face immediate threats including operations in the Sinai, Libya, and potentially Iran or Ethiopia if push comes to shove. However, after they surprised everyone with the Rafale deal they took a step backwards with their approach to Russia for the MiG – 35. Many observers of the Egyptian Armed Forces modernisation process post 2011 thought that they had finally got the message with the acquisition of the Rafale, Gowinds, Ambassadors, and FREMM frigate. Egypt was finally moving towards a force predominantly armed with Western equipment as part of a larger network that also included communication and remote sensing satellites. Our predictions were soon shattered.

You want to lick it don’t ya? go ahead I won’t tell anyone.
Now this is not a slight on the MiG – 35, I’m sure it’s an excellent fighter in its own right and will hopefully serve the EAF well but it does not stack up to the Rafale which is where the money should have gone. Not only because it is the better fighter but because it gave the EAF the ability to plug and play. It shares much with Egypt’s F – 16 such as the Paveway family of guided munitions, Recce pods, and above all can be networked with them, unlike the MiG. So why the Russian fighter?

It’s time to address two rather large elephants in the room. The United States and Israel. Ever since the Peace Treaty between the two the United States has been the guarantor of Israeli qualitative and quantitative superiority in the region and in order to ensure that it has restricted certain system sales to Egypt including advanced air to air missiles for their F – 16 such as the AIM – 120 and AIM – 9X. Now whether Egypt has done much to deserve certain restrictions being lifted is another matter for another already planned blog.

Egypt will always measure its capability against that of its neighbour not just because of their past and the current somewhat cold peace but because in realist terms they are the greatest conventional threat in the region and a competitor. Because the US restricts crucial equipment from the Egyptians they often look elsewhere to fill the gap, Russia is often there to lap up the spoils.

This leaves Egypt in the same position it was in almost ten years ago. Eventually the EAF will have to support two forces instead of one again and in doing so it ends neglecting the backbone in the F – 16 and not investing enough in the Rafale because funds are being diverted towards the MiG – 35.

Now, what I have just written isn’t exactly popular within the Egyptian social media bubble as a result of a “Armed Forces knows best” attitude towards critcism and often people who should know better purposefully misleading readers who are unfamilliar with the subject. I’ve written this to hopefully generate some discussion or inform people about a subject few are interested in or know about. As always take everything I write with a pinch of salt as I’m not inside the decision process and may be way off as a result even though I often like to think I’m never wrong.

In the end what we have here is a cautionary tale of lessons not being learned and past mistakes being repeated.

 

[Riz]

After reading some posts from some "Brothers" (lol) on this thread I beg to Egp Govt not to buy 3rd grade , useless , toothless , light aircraft (only best for training) JF-17 …………
To Pakistani posters , let it go brothers , it wont worth , safe your time & energy , some people and countries are high in their egos let them stay high..

Let them get rafales... And we will show them how to shot down an IAF rafale with JF-17.... Hahaha

 

[The Eagle]

The most important point is the fourth generation aircraft, such as the FC-1 Radar, with its weakest AESA in the world EW capabilities, a weak Airframe that have no chance against fifth-generation fighter jets, of course, and even the difficulty of responding to aircraft such as F-15I & F-16I

Please share detailed analysis along with evidences or academic research if any because, it seems worthless reading.

Just a hint that during last Air Battle with India on 27th Feb, JF-17 Thunder performed very well against IAF's Mig-21 & Mirage-2000. However, as you claimed so I will be waiting to read more into this.

Regards,

 

[HRK]

.............

what sort of the post you just wrote .....

To all Pakistani and Arab members plz maintain civility .....

 

[Khafee]

what sort of the post you just wrote .....

To all Pakistani and Arab members plz maintain civility .....

I dont understand, why people are wasting their time with a teenager, are they that desperate to have themselves heard?

 

[Khafee]

The JF-17 has one inherent structural flaw, it's internal fuel tanks. A slightly larger air frame, would have helped in this case.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

It's worse than most of the modern Western and Russian fighters in production. Israel isn't India and Egypt needs advanced fighters like Rafale, Su-35, Mig-35. Name one modern jet in production that aviation experts would say the JF-17 is better than. Simply put, the JF-17 can't keep up with the F-35, or F-15s in Israeli service.

How old are you kiddo?

JF17 is perhaps the only aircraft in modern warfare which dominated not only skies but pounded ground targets of an enemy which itself is formidable. It's was not an uneven contest where USAf and Isreali airforce pounding hapless Arab nations. Jf17 is now battle proven in highly contested airspace and against Isreali supplied weapons and systems which India use.

JF17 have SPANKED the Saudi F15s and even American F15s were given run for their money in DACTs.

Be grateful that we are considering selling you this weapon system, perhaps more out of consideration to send a message to Isreali establishment and their relentless support to India.

 

[My-Analogous]

Egyptian negotiations during the PAS2019 exhibition to contract JF17 fighter jets with the transfer of technology

The success of the JF17, which took part in the Paris Air Show 2019, was remarkable. Discussions were held with several countries interested in buying the fighter, most notably Egypt. In this context, the Chinese sites said that Egypt will not only buy the fighter, but that will extend also to the possibility of establishing a production line and assembly. If the plan is completed, it will undoubtedly be an opportunity to open a new market for fighters in the Middle East.

According to the Chinese site Sina, Egypt plans to get 3 squadrons of the JF17 fighter, and then start production locally, in the same line of production of the K8E training aircraft, to save the effort and reduce the cost.
...
Judging from the public news of the Paris Air Show, the JF17 fighter have gradually become better in the international market. China and Pakistan are now working together to open up the international market and learn from each other's strengths. For example, Egypt is a traditional Chinese aircraft customer, the Egyptian Air Force JF17 fighter project is negotiated by the Egyptian side with China Aviation Technology, and Pakistan has promoted to Malaysia, Nigeria, and Azerbaijan. If the Egyptian Air Force introduces the JF17 fighter into a line, it marks that the JF17 fighter has entered the Middle East market and will have a profound impact on the regional and international markets. Driven by many potential customers, the most direct possibility is the Saudi Air Force. It is said that Saudi pilots have already tested the JF17 fighter. It is not ruled out that Saudi Arabia will also introduce the JF17 fighters after Egypt.


https://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2019-06-21/doc-ihytcerk8415299.shtml

No to production line. They can have planes but for production line KSA is much batter place

 

[Mithridates]

guys don't fight with each other, EAF probably gonna replace jf-17 with old mirages so Egypt will not loose anything. jf-17 gonna add BVR to Egyptian new fleets (even better than f-16 and with it's pl-15 missiles), it's cheap, reliable, obviously modern compared to older planes and more importantly it's sanction free.

 

[Basel]

The JF-17 has one inherent structural flaw, it's internal fuel tanks. A slightly larger air frame, would have helped in this case.

CFTs can compensate issue.

 

[Khafee]

CFTs can compensate issue.

Where are they?

 

[Basel]

Where are they?

PAF will bring them when they feel the need, they know how important they are in adding flying hours.