Egypt: The Next India or the Next Pakistan?

[Hyperion]

lol you are funny.

Are you sure you are Pakistani? Every Pakistani knows who comprises Afghanistan.

Its the Pathans, Tajiks, Uzbek, Hazaras, then the Aimak.

Yes I do look one of them since my mother is Pathan of the Yusufzai.

Yups, I am a Pakistani and then a real blood Pashtun. What about the rest of Pakistan, are they ALL Pashtun?

 

[PakShah]

Yups, I am a Pakistani and then a real blood Pashtun. What about the rest of Pakistan, are they ALL Pashtun?

Are the rest of the Pakistanis of Indian ethnicity? Are they Marathi? Gujarati? Rajasthani? Hindi walas from Uttar Pradesh, Tamil, Oriya?

No the rest are Punjabis of the Pakistan stock, Sindhi, Kashmiri, Hunza, Balochi, etc.

 

[Hyperion]

Are the rest of the Pakistanis of Indian ethnicity? Are they Marathi? Gujarati? Rajasthani? Hindi walas from Uttar Pradesh, Tamil, Oriya?

No the rest are Punjabis of the Pakistan stock, Sindhi, Kashmiri, Hunza, Balochi, etc.

Mate, I used the word "populace". Read my post very carefully, you need to interpret it again.

 

[Kompromat]

Did anyone included, zionist author's personal biases?

 

[PakShah]

Did anyone included, zionist author's personal biases?

lol ofcourse the stupid article had a biased angle to it.

"India or Pakistan"

Whatever forget the article piece. Who takes western journalism seriously anyways. Most of the western media lies. Like CNN BBC, Fox News, or Sky news.

All of it 100% cra*

 

[jbond197]

Wow, how can they compare India with either Pakistan or Egypt? As i see it, none of them is a functional democracy where as India is. Even though it lacks in certain areas but it is only improving.

Egypt and Pakistan both are ideologically Islamic where as to run India religion does not play that of a greater role. Indian democracy may be vote bank politics affected but it does not vote a party/parliament representative just because he belongs to majority Hindus. Egypt and Pakistan's politics run on and by Islam. I don't see coptic Christian occupying high post in Egypt or Ahmadi/Hindu/other minority taking positions of decision making in Pakistan.

So i conclude by saying there is no comparison of India with either Pakistan or Egypt and probably with the current populace mindset such comparison would not be possible in any near visible future. That anyhow is my view and others are most welcome to disagree.

 

[Bang Galore]

Wow, how can they compare India with either Pakistan or Egypt? As i see it, none of them is a functional democracy where as India is. Even though it lacks in certain areas but it is only improving.

Egypt and Pakistan both are ideologically Islamic where as to run India religion does not play that of a greater role. Indian democracy may be vote bank politics affected but it does not vote a party/parliament representative just because he belongs to majority Hindus. Egypt and Pakistan's politics run on and by Islam. I don't see coptic Christian occupying high post in Egypt or Ahmadi/Hindu/other minority taking positions of decision making in Pakistan.

So i conclude by saying there is no comparison of India with either Pakistan or Egypt and probably with the current populace mindset such comparison would never be possible. That's my view and others are welcome to disagree.

That's the point, democracy only really works in a country which aims to be secular. If you raise one religion, regardless of the number of people following it to a pedestal, then you will find instruments of democracy like elections being used to suppress & oppress other segments of people. Democracy works best when every individual has the same inalienable rights and those rights are not dependent on his/her following the majority religion.

 

[my2cents]

There are arguments against that. Since it was this very attitude that led to the separation movement gaining momentum.
Moreover that very idea of NOT exersizing that initiative shows that there is an awareness of that potential and that exists as a Damocles sword. The fact that there are a substantial number of leaders in India who include such idea within their vote banks means that it is not a taken as an act of compromise, rather condescend to mercifully let them be.
At no point then is this a case of we are equal.. but rather a case of "we are better and merciful".

The Hindu Majority then ensures an integrated India and any semblance of a Majority by the other religions would disturb this balance and cause the Hindu majority to act beyond their civility against the other communities.

what better options are available for societies with significant minority populations? It is the leaders who will ensure an integrated country by looking beyond 'we are better or merciful'. India was fortune enough to have leaders who were secular and inclusive. Hindu's ethos of many paths to one god is very inclusive in nature. By and large India has demonstrated quite successfully how to integrate a country with so much diversity through democratic means. It is your perception that we have not matured as a democracy in past 65 years, when in fact we have become more integrated with a robust economy. Our minority have a stake in our growth unlike in Pakistan.

 

[my2cents]

I think the disposition of Pakistanis are more closer to Afghanistanis.
lol at the Indian karan21. He thanks anyone who says Pakistan has anything in common with Indians.

Hey, both of you wear different prisms to look at reality. he look at things with what unites us and you look at things that divides us.

 

[SQ8]

what better options are available for societies with significant minority populations? It is the leaders who will ensure an integrated country by looking beyond 'we are better or merciful'. India was fortune enough to have leaders who were secular and inclusive. Hindu's ethos of many paths to one god is very inclusive in nature. By and large India has demonstrated quite successfully how to integrate a country with so much diversity through democratic means. It is your perception that we have not matured as a democracy in past 65 years, when in fact we have become more integrated with a robust economy. Our minority have a stake in our growth unlike in Pakistan.

Oh I do not argue the integration but there are elements with protests on Maharashtra and non Maharashtra migrants.. where girls are arrested for liking page plainly based on political and communal alignment and have to apologize for them and their families to be left alive.These elements have worked in the past, and continue to be part of the government apparatus at any stage with any government regardless. Their acceptability is based on the existence that somehow a section of Muslims refused to bow down to their ideals in the 30's and now have a separate state and hence will pose an existential threat to India. And I am not saying that all Indians do, or even 10% do.. but there is a section of the population that answers this call and allows these elements within and outside the government and military to thrive.

And my observation is not based on news articles, but on the many Indian friends I have made and continue to make.
And their views are best extracted while letting them indulge in more than a few drinks ..to talk to them about politics, their community and those of their brethren...and the posts of many Indians here.
I haven't stuck to any particular community, or ethnicity in these observations.. and with all of them it becomes clear that there are cracks within that exist and are exploited by only the elements I point to. I have seen outbursts ranging from being vehemently "pro-peace" with Pakistan to nuking us.. ranging from taking about the glorious times of Mughals ... to more than one individual speaking out on why "Allah-wale/Musli/BCs" arent sent to Pakistan.
And there were Indian Muslims as well, some lamenting that they end up losing any semblance of their religious identity in an effort to fit in. Others.. Muslims by name.. literally. So the issue of integration by true meaning... learning to accept that the fellow Indian has as much of a right to be there as you do.. is the question...and India isnt exclusive to this.. look at the US .. its more polarized than ever.
So how can one accept arguments such as Hinduism has saved India when well over 45-50 representatives of the population ranging from Dehli to Calcutta.. Hindu,Muslim to Jain(both the sweetest human beings I have ever met in my life .. FYI) testify to the contrary when spilling it all out over a bottle of the famous Grouse or Chivas.

So unless the minority is so that it does not create issues, it must be suppressed or amalgamated. You dont have to butcher them or anything barbaric of that sort.. just make them feel so ashamed over their past through targeted propaganda and alteration of historical records that if they do not scream "vande mataram" out louder than everyone else.. they will feel outcasts.
And I give Hinduism little credit for it, because all over the world where there are mufti-cultural societies the dominant culture ends up suppressing them and Hinduism is as much of a culture as it is a religion and not exclusive. So when these Muslims lose the semblance of their identity their essence as a force dies out. So India then in essence remains a Hindu secular state where only Hinduism is glorified , only Hinduism is remembered ..and the only other force that may form a counter-balance has to be so ridiculed and mocked about its history that they dont dare to lift their heads up and look at their fellow Indian.
Why I use the term Hindu-Muslims a lot for Muslims of the subcontinent because as much as is boasted by the "invader" syndrome types here.. there was massive integration of the religion with the local culture. But that culture gained independence in 1947 and whatever remained of it had to latch on to an identity which the "secular" types provided. If you did not latch on it, you were left to the downtrodden areas of places like Lakhnaw and forgotten.

Now India does have achievements in integration, and by whatever way it has been accomplished.. the results have led to a new generation and mostly the middle class coming up much more infused with the need for materialism than ever before.
The new generation offers hope, it offers integration on an actual scale.. but they are now in danger of forgetting all about themselves and are now being suppressed on a global scale by the west. In that their own petty issues of being Muslim Indians or Hindu Indians have been lost in the attempt to "out-modern" the west. There is cultural resistance.. there is hope.
But the optimistic and almost glorious way its been presented here, I do not agree with.

Pakistan has almost zero integration now, and by zero integration it is ZERO. none across the ethnicity, none across the various sects WITHIN the same religion.. NONE across class lines or otherwise.
The only semblance of some integration are the armed forces of which have succumbed to the past in being used against any single one of the many ethnicity comprising Pakistan(Bengalis, Balochis,Urdu-speakers and now locked in a battle against a mix of Pashtun as well). Hence it too has the potential to be rapidly disintegrated along ethnic/sectarian/class lines.
So it is not comparable to the ground situation in India.. and as follows...:


Compare this to Egypt.. 90% Egyptians(no particular ethnicity other than being Arabs).. out of which 90% are Muslims..
Hence one dominant race.. one dominant religion. No communal or ethnic power struggle , only that of ideology and political ambitions.
It has NO parallel in Pakistan.. and NO parallel in India.
Hence it's future cannot be compared to either India or Pakistan.

Egypt will continue to behave as it already has with power figures coming and going.. and will continue to lean either east or west to wherever the Suez ends up favoring.

 

[my2cents]

@Oscar
I do agree there are fissures and cracks in our democratic setup and it lends to embolden some unscrupulous elements in our society and politicians at large. You see some communal riots and the arguments tends to become sharp just how our setup is inadequate to handle such situations. That our secularism is fake and it looks good only on paper etc. Now, you and I know India has endured all and still is a functioning and vibrant democracy.

In a country of 1.2 billion population, you see all kinds of views are expressed. some arguments lean towards alienation of our minorities by supporting policies favoring the majority. It is one face of India which is discussed to a point of ad nauseam. But the beauty of our setup is that everything under the sky is discussed and argued and eventually leads a policy framework. So, when institutions are given powers to correct inadequate policies and their implementation, then I see hope for our setup.

In Egypt's case, the author Mr Friedman wishes that long authoritarian regimes like that of Hosni Mubarak are not given a chance for come back and in his opinion democracy like the one in India is the only option.

 

[A1Kaid]

totally wrong analogy and crap coming out out of american media as usual

Thom Friedman is a journalist who has just gradually been getting worst over the years, trying hard to find relevance in the media by writing articles about the Middle East his fixation. He is a real loser these days...

 

[Black Widow]

The next pakistan of course, The Arab world can't be tolerant. The tolerance come with civilization/Society and unfortunately Egyptians have lost there root/Civilization...

The Arabic society is proved to be Chaotic and violent...

 

[my2cents]

Thom Friedman is a journalist who has just gradually been getting worst over the years, trying hard to find relevance in the media by writing articles about the Middle East his fixation. He is a real loser these days...

He is for pro western and pro democratic governments in Middle east. He is right in his assessment that it is good for the world when people vent their anger in open societies and are not oppressed for their views.

 

[Don Jaguar]

Egypt is still better than india.

Propaganda article as usual.