EGYPT: NATION PRODUCES UAV IN COOPERATION WITH CHINA

[nomi007]

all we need right now is air superiority fighter we have 220 f 16

u 1st replace f-4 f-7 and mig-21 by jf-17
than talk about 5th generation

 

[NeutralCitizen]

You're correct, I would never trust the west on such matters. Simply because they'll cut off all needed equipment and spare parts once there's a war.
I don't think the country is in a shape to start a project to build tanks currently, but if our economy heals, I think it'll be something very good, especially if we can make it a jointly developed tank with a country that has experience, say Turkey, China, Pakistan or Russia.

The Egyptian Army is the most modern out of the Navy and Airforce, first thing is Egypt needs to get it's economy back on track start modernizing the armed forces, the gulf arabs are simply buying expensive toys first rate equipment while they have third rate troops, I'm not sure about pakistan help, in terms of desert wars your going to need a tank like the challenger or Abram, turkey, china and russia could very much help you out but you guys can't have such a pro USA policy.

u 1st replace f-4 f-7 and mig-21 by jf-17
than talk about 5th generation

Jf-17 your serious ? J-10B , SU-35BM or Mig 35 are simply better then the Jf-17 the question is can egypt afford it right now.

 

[IbnAlwaled]

LOL, Egypt won't buy any Chinese fighter jets. At least for now, the MB doesn't want to show they are moving away from the west.

 

[RayKalm]

This is what China needs to do with the Muslim world. As an upcoming global power, China is positive in the eyes of many Muslims (slash Syria and a few other Arab countries now due to the veto [which is a whole other issue]), and this way it's beneficial for both China and the countries it's working with.

Also, congratulations to Egypt, may you prosper.

 

[Skorpian]

LOL, Egypt won't buy any Chinese fighter jets. At least for now, the MB doesn't want to show they are moving away from the west.

What do you mean by " MB "? Muslim Brotherhood?
Also, NeutralCitizen, do you mean that Leopard tank can't work in Desert? What about the Russian T-90 and Al Khalid, do those work in desert?
Oh and by the way, is the Chinese Shenyang J-11 a decent aircraft? Or the J-10 and SU-30 are better?

 

[IbnAlwaled]

What do you mean by " MB "? Muslim Brotherhood?
Also, NeutralCitizen, do you mean that Leopard tank can't work in Desert? What about the Russian T-90?
Oh and by the way, is the Chinese Shenyang J-11 a decent aircraft? Or the J-10 and SU-30 are better?

Yes, when Morsi wins, he will need to show the west that Egypt won't be the next Iran. So, for now Egypt will keep most of its weapons purchases for the US.

 

[Skorpian]

Yes, when Morsi wins, he will need to show the west that Egypt won't be the next Iran. So, for now Egypt will keep most of its weapons purchases for the US.

Sadly, Morsi will win. Not that I support Shafiq against him, but I was really wishing for Hamdeen Sabahi or Abo El fotooh to win, not MB. I don't like Muslim Brotherhood anymore, they were giving people oil, rice and other things so that they elect them( i.e bribing the people to elect them ), in both the parliament elections and presidency elections. I really don't know how he reached the second round in elections, even when the true face of the MB has been shown, they care about themselves and reaching power only, nothing else.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

What do you mean by " MB "? Muslim Brotherhood?
Also, NeutralCitizen, do you mean that Leopard tank can't work in Desert? What about the Russian T-90?
Oh and by the way, is the Chinese Shenyang J-11 a decent aircraft? Or the J-10 and SU-30 are better?

Of course both Leopard and T-90 can work however the western tanks so far have always been superior then the russian tanks, but instead of buying tanks you should produce your own like israel has done, the J-11 is still being worked on if I've heard so far your going to have to wait a while 2-3 years, but J-10B and SU30 yes you can go for them, I wouldn't do what the gulf arabs do they have first rate weaponry but third rate soldiers this is simply why israel doesn't fear them, Arab-Israeli wars pretty much proved it.

 

[Skorpian]

Of course both Leopard and T-90 can work however the western tanks so far have always been superior then the russian tanks, but instead of buying tanks you should produce your own like israel has done, the J-11 is still being worked on if I've heard so far your going to have to wait a while 2-3 years, but J-10B and SU30 yes you can go for them, I wouldn't do what the gulf arabs do they have first rate weaponry but third rate soldiers this is simply why israel doesn't fear them, Arab-Israeli wars pretty much proved it

Leopard tank is a German tank, doesn't that make it effectively a Western tank?
But yes, Germany is still a very pro-Israeli country, so I think our only option is to produce ( or possibly co-produce ) a good effective tank.
Oh btw I think you got things mixed up, J-11 is in active service with Chinese air force, with 140 in service and 70 on order. It's been produced since 1998.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

Leopard tank is a German tank, doesn't that make it effectively a Western tank?
But yes, Germany is still a very pro-Israeli country, so I think our only option is to produce ( or possibly co-produce ) a good effective tank.

yup forgot to mention , Germany is pro israel , it seems your only option maybe with turkey or russia I also have to recommend getting your economy back on track including not relaying on tourism that much.

Leopard tank is a German tank, doesn't that make it effectively a Western tank?
But yes, Germany is still a very pro-Israeli country, so I think our only option is to produce ( or possibly co-produce ) a good effective tank.
Oh btw I think you got things mixed up, J-11 is in active service with Chinese air force, with 140 in service and 70 on order. It's been produced since 1998.

China has some engine issues now with their domestic engines not to mention Due to some other issues with russia so far the J-11 can't be exported at least for a while.

 

[Desert Fox]

You're correct, I would never trust the west on such matters. Simply because they'll cut off all needed equipment and spare parts once there's a war.

If i'm correct the American Tanks, APC's, and Fighter jets Egypt receives from the US are for free but they are downgraded and do not include all of the high tech armor, weapons, and missiles that the ones in service with America have. What i believe (and this is my opinion) Egypt should do is acquire as many M1A1's, APC's, and F-16's it can within the budget allocated to it for free military aid by the US so that in time of war Egypt will be able to cannibalize the surplus Tanks, APC's, and Jets for spare parts in order to keep its frontline fleets operational since it is highly likely that USA and West will sanction those parts.

And while Egypt stocks all of these surplus Tanks, APC's, and Jets (which it gets for free, so it would be smart to take advantage of the opportunity) it can also take part in joint ventures with other major world powers like China to build its own Tanks, Missiles, APC's, and Jets.

A few members here mentioned Egypt getting the J-20 and the J-10B, IMHO that is impossible for many reasons:

1). J-20 is still in prototype stage and will not enter service in the PLAAF until around 2018-2025

2). The PLAAF will first fulfill its own orders before exporting the J-20, that might take around 4-5 years.

3). J-10B is also in prototype stages however it will enter production in 2013-2014, much sooner than the J-20, but as with J-20 the J-10B's production lines will be busy with first fulfilling the PLAAF's orders and then the PAF's orders.

4). The J-20, even after the Chinese fulfill their orders, won't be a cheap aircraft in regards to price tag, cost of maintenance, and will put a strain on any fragile economy. The current variant of the J-10 in service with the PLAAF, J-10A, its price tag is $42 million. From this one can conclude that the J-10B's unit cost would be much greater.


So, with regards to Egypt purchasing Chinese aircrafts and that too which one to be exact, it would have to be the FC-1/JF-17 and it is logical for Egypt to go for the JF-17/FC-1 for many reasons:

1). Its cheaper compared to the other aircraft of its class, one unite price is 25-30 million and this includes more than just the aircraft itself.

2). Availability; unlike the other Chinese options, the JF-17/FC-1 is available for production and both China and Pakistan are looking to sell the aircraft to potential buyers who have shown keen interest in the aircraft (Egypt is among the potential buyers).

3). Egypt will get ToT if it wants to induct JF-17's/FC-1's in large numbers to replace its massive aging fleet of MiG's and Mirages as well as MiG variant aircraft which are now obsolete.

4). In house production of parts and safe source of supply of engine therefore no worry about being under embargo in case of potential conflict with any country as well as ease of maintenance.

5). BVR as well as stand off weapons (cruise missiles, long range PGM's, etc) capabilities, something Egypt's F-16's don't have.

6). The ToT will provide job opportunities to many Egyptians as well as invaluable experience to Egyptian engineers and technicians which can assist in indigenous projects and innovation that will really come in handy.

7). This window of opportunity will open many more windows of opportunities for Egypt in cooperation with China and Pakistan.

Now this is just my assessment of what Egyptian members want vs what Egypt should and can acquire with regards to Chinese aircraft that are currently available and affordable options for the EAF according to Egypt's requirement and its current economic conditions. If the EAF 's decision makers want to go with Russian aircraft then that's up to them to decide. Currently Egypt has showed keen interest in the JF-17/FC-1 and is seeking to co-produce it with Pakistan.

I don't think the country is in a shape to start a project to build tanks currently, but if our economy heals, I think it'll be something very good, especially if we can make it a jointly developed tank with a country that has experience, say Turkey, China, Pakistan or Russia.

Now, coming to the Main Battle Tanks, IMO Egypt's M1A1's/M1A2's (does Egypt field the M1A2's?) are very capable even in their current downgraded form, they just lack the DU armor along with in house production of the major parts, not to mention they consume more fuel than other Tanks that are just as capable, if not more.

Egypt should get involved with either Russia, China, or Turkey, and if possible Pakistan. The reason why i say "if possible Pakistan" is because currently our economic state is no different from that of Egypt's and therefore we won't be able to co-fund a separate Tank project other than our own current ongoing Tank projects so it would be a lot better for Egypt to cooperate with the former three since they are in a much better economic state than Egypt and can provide the necessary funds for R&D to help Egypt produce its own Tank.

Secondly, i'm not aware if the Al-Khalid is up for sale to other countries with Saudi Arabia being an exception. The Al-Khalid was meant for extremely hot environments and is a highly capable Tank, in fact Pakistan went for the Al-Khalid project after we rejected the M1A1 Abrams in the late 1980's. Also, Pakistan transferred Composite Armor Technology to Turkey for their Altay Tank.

Russia and China are desperate for a new ally in the Middle East since Syria has become very unstable and center of attention in the recent months, i guess this is an opportunity for Egypt to take advantage of, i'm sure the Chinese would be more than happy to assist Egypt and spread their influence further more in the ME.

 

[Skorpian]

Thanks for the info, Desert Fox. I know that Egypt has been mulling possibilities of coproduction of JF-17 with Pakistan ( how awesome would that be, I really wish for some actual cooperation between Muslim countries ).
As for J-10, I thought its price tag was about 28 million USD, not 42.
You're correct about the fact that Russia and China need new allies in the Middle East with Al Assad more than likely going down soon. I think we should try to replace our aging aircrafts by new air crafts, including Mig 21 and others. Not necessarily Chinese only or Russian only, but possibly a mix, eh? I think best candidates would be Su-30, JF-17 and possibly Mig 29.
As for Abrams, as far as I know we operate M1A2 tanks but still downgraded versions of the American ones, for sure.
About Al Khalid tanks, they could be candidates as our battle field will be almost 100% Sinai and its deserts, which are hot. But I know that it can get cold, especially at night during the winter. I have no idea if they can operate in such circumstances.

 

[Desert Fox]

Thanks for the info, Desert Fox.

No prob.

I know that Egypt has been mulling possibilities of coproduction of JF-17 with Pakistan ( how awesome would that be, I really wish for some actual cooperation between Muslim countries ).

I agree, it would be a great boost to our indigenous capabilities and will strengthen our military industries making us less dependent on the West.

As for J-10, I thought its price tag was about 28 million USD, not 42.

According to this link its 42 million:

Currently, only about 200 Chinese J-10 in service, most of the initial model F-10A; aircraft export unit price of $ 42 million. At present, China can create 2-3 aircraft per month to the fighters.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...eas-buyers-half-price-f-16-a.html#post2005119

Though you could be right as some sources are stating its 28 million, perhaps there's a typo or the English translation is not correct from my source.Maybe the 42 million was for the J-10B?

You're correct about the fact that Russia and China need new allies in the Middle East with Al Assad more than likely going down soon. I think we should try to replace our aging aircrafts by new air crafts, including Mig 21 and others. Not necessarily Chinese only or Russian only, but possibly a mix, eh? I think best candidates would be Su-30, JF-17 and possibly Mig 29.

Yes, a mix of both Russian and Chinese would be good since their parts can be compatible with one another for example Russian Engines on Chinese fighters, Chinese J-11 parts for SU-30's, etc.

SU-30's can play the role of deep strike aircraft, MiG-29's the role of heavy fighters JF-17's the role of light fighter. And F-16's as CAS and WVR fighter?

As for Abrams, as far as I know we operate M1A2 tanks but still downgraded versions of the American ones, for sure.
About Al Khalid tanks, they could be candidates as our battle field will be almost 100% Sinai and its deserts, which are hot. But I know that it can get cold, especially at night during the winter. I have no idea if they can operate in such circumstances.

Pakistan has similar environmental condition in our southern region where we border india. Its extremely hot during day and very cold during the night, in fact Saudi tried out our Tank in desert trials and the Tank performed very well, it impressed them but the deal never went through for some odd reason and i have a feeling it had nothing to do with the Tank having short comings rather something political:





ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: (PNS) - A 23-member Royal Saudi Land Forces evaluation team headed by Maj Gen Ahmed Bin Saeed Al-Shehri visited Pakistan for evaluation of indigenously manufactured products of Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).

The evaluation team was warmly welcomed by the Chairman HIT, who gave them an exhaustive briefing on the capability of HIT and its potential for marketing sophisticated weapon systems suiting the dictates of modern warfare.

The Saudi team showed keen interest in state-of-the-art and pride of Pakistan Armour, Al-Khalid tank and APC Saad, and carried out intensive in-house technical evaluation and trials.

During the arduous trials under most inhospitable environments, the roaring Al-Khalid, a marvel of tank technology performed astoundingly well. It is for the first time that a Main Battle tank (Al-Khalid) attained 100% hits at a distance of 4,000 meters and set an unprecedented record in tank technology.

Al-Khalid also fired while moving, on a moving target at various ranges upto a distance of 3,000 meters and achieved 100% results. The lethality and accuracy of the weapon stations of Al-Khalid, its high power to weight ratio and manoeuvrability demonstrated in the most hostile terrain speaks volumes of its agility and combat capability to challenge any tank of the world.

Saudi Master Gunner, Subedar Major Yahya Bin Ahmed Atif achieved the rare feat of hitting a bulls eye at extreme ranges with 100% accuracy and achieved record firing results with a few days training only, indicative of user friendliness of Tank Al-Khalid.

The delegation was highly impressed with the performance of tank Al-Khalid and APC Saad during arduous trials. The new generation, APC Saad of Pakistan Armed forces has also been totally manufactured in Pakistan with a vision to meet the demands of 21st century battlefield.

Pakistan is rightfully proud of its engineers and technicians who envisioned, designed and manufactured such combat multipliers, giving its Armed Forces the power punch and capability to face any challenge to its national security.

Defense Cooperation & Sales – IX


Here it is in the Desert:

Al Khalid trail - YouTube

One error in the video made by uploader, the speed of Al-Khalid is not 50 KPH, rather its 72 KPH on road and around 60 KPH off road.

 

[Edevelop]

Jf-17 your serious ? J-10B , SU-35BM or Mig 35 are simply better then the Jf-17 the question is can egypt afford it right now.

First identify yourself, which country you belong to truly.

JF-17, especially Block 2 can perform the same roles as J-10B, SU-35BM. All are BVR capable, have AESA radar, IRST, Refuelling probes, pods, ECM, and can carry all types of armaments on board. The only difference is hard points and range.

Lets talk logic here:

Egypt can either go for JF-17 to replace aging aircrafts like F-7, Mig-21, Mirage III, F-4 at low cost , that can go for upgrades, and that can be produced in their own homeland to enhance aerospace sector jobs and experience. The other next choice is, J-10B and SU-35BM if they feel like spending billions, getting less upgrades in the future, and not producing anything at home.

 

[Skorpian]

Though you could be right as some sources are stating its 28 million, perhaps there's a typo or the English translation is not correct from my source.Maybe the 42 million was for the J-10B?

It's a possibility, because if J-10A is 42 million USD, you can imagine how crazily the J-10B would be expensive and unsuitable for exporting to a lot of countries due to its high price.

Yes, a mix of both Russian and Chinese would be good since their parts can be compatible with one another for example Russian Engines on Chinese fighters, Chinese J-11 parts for SU-30's, etc.

Hmm, I didn't know that Chinese parts from certain aircrafts can go on Russian aircrafts. That makes spare parts more available during the war in case of shortages.

Pakistan has similar environmental condition in our southern region where we border india. Its extremely hot during day and very cold during the night, in fact Saudi tried out our Tank in desert trials and the Tank performed very well, it impressed them but the deal never went through for some odd reason and i have a feeling it had nothing to do with the Tank having short comings rather something political:

So you mean that the tank was made putting into consideration that the weather will be pretty cold at night? If so I see no reason why it shouldn't be a candidate for the Egyptian army. But as mentioned before, it'd still be the best to go for indigenous tanks, it'll at least give us the experience to develop better tanks even if the first tank isn't a good enough tank.
Oh one question, does Pakistan army manafacture Al Khalid tanks and JF-17 aircrafts 100% in Pakistan? Like are all internal parts Pakistani made? Or you import some?