Effectiveness of Air-Air-Missile Comparison

[Neo]

Whats a difference between SD-10 and US made AMRAAM, as Pakistan is going for AMRAAM with F-16's instead of SD-10. Surely AMRAAM would be a more capable missile and some reason for selection.

AMRAAM has better range and its much 'matured'and advanced than the chinese counterpart.
Btw, US probably won't release codes to integrate AMRAAM into JF-17/20, we need SD-10 for these birds.

 

[melb4aust]

AMRAAM has better range and its much 'matured'and advanced than the chinese counterpart.
Btw, US probably won't release codes to integrate AMRAAM into JF-17/20, we need SD-10 for these birds.

Why not we are paying for them, is there any possibility of breaking those codes up from those missiles, i heard some did that few yrz back, cant remember which country was that. Those were russian missiles.

 

[Neo]

Why not we are paying for them, is there any possibility of breaking those codes up from those missiles, i heard some did that few yrz back, cant remember which country was that. Those were russian missiles.

I'm not sure if that is possible, OoE may give you more info.
All I know is that all these new gooddies will be heavily bugged.
If one is to cross border to China, uncle will know. :what1:

 

[Ahassan]

Why not we are paying for them, is there any possibility of breaking those codes up from those missiles, i heard some did that few yrz back, cant remember which country was that. Those were russian missiles.

who said this.....

 

[melb4aust]

who said this.....

I read this in an article some where on the internet a year ago. Possibly on F-16.net, but not entirely sure

 

[Muradk]

The weapon was to be named, IRIS-T, Infra Red Imagery Sidewinder Tail-controlled with workshare arrangements thus; Germay 46%, Italy 19%, Sweden 18%, Greece 13% the remainder split between Canada and Norway. The system would build upon BGT's involvement in production of the existing AIM-9 Sidewinder as well as its seeker work. As with ASRAAM the IRIS-T retains complete interoperability with AIM-9. Any aircraft capable of carrying and firing Sidewinder will be capable of launching IRIS-T.


BGT/SAAB/Alenia-Marconi IRIS-T

Although based on the AIM-9 design IRIS-T improves upon it quite substantially in practically every area. The missile consists of basically five sections; guidance, fuze, warhead, motor and tail control. The guidance section contains a BGT designed scanning imaging Indium-Antimonide infra-red sensor. The array has a resolution of 128 by 128 pixels which combined with digital signal processing (provided by a SAAB built DSP) gives the missile an ability to see its target and even aim for certain specific sections. In addition the seeker offers an off-boresight capability of 90 degrees in all directions. This gives it the ability to be launched over the shoulder via an appropriate cueing system (eg. a Helmet Mounted Sight), targetting data can also be taken from the launch platforms radar. Initial guidance is provided by a strap-down inertial navigation system built by Litton Italia. Behind the sensor sits an active radar based fuze built by Alenia-Marconi. This provides both range and range-rate information allowing the missile to detonate its warhead at a pre-determined distance form the target.

Next in line is a dual-layer High Explosive fragmentation warhead designed and built by Greece's GPCC. Behind this sit the main propulsion and control systems. A new motor built by FiatAvio of Italy and Nammo of Norway is included which utilises a smokeless propellant arranged in a star-shaped formation within the combustion chamber. This section also provides the attachment point for four wings providing additional lift. The rear most section, the responsibility of Canada's AlliedSignal contains the thrust vectoring nozzle as well as four fins. The nozzle, which provides for flight control utilises four vanes placed within the exhaust. By directly controlling the position of these the thrust can be vectored in any required direction. Such an arrangement provides a large increase in achievable manoueverability, turns in excess of 50g are made possible.

The Swedish Air Force has already commited to purchasing IRIS-T for its JAS-39 Gripen fleet when deliveries begin in 2002. To enable deployment SAAB-BAE Systems have already carried out test flights of a Helmet Mounted Sight for the Gripen allowing IRIS-T to be fully utilised. Beyond Germany and Sweden, Norway is also expected to purchase the weapon as a replacement for AIM-9 aboard its F-16's. In addition both Denmark and Belgium are interested in purchasing the weapon.

In October 2000 the first air launched firings of the missile occured from F-16's of the Hellenic Air Force. This was followed first in March 2002 by a pre-programmed launch against a drone target and later by a seeker guided firing in April 2002. The missile, launched from an F-4 Phantom flying off the coast of Sardinia successfully tracked and brought down the drone. According to BGT development remains on track and initial production versions of the missile are due to be made available by mid-2002 with full production occuring in late-2002/early-2003. IRIS-T is set to gain full operational clearance before the end of 2005. This date should mirror the first fully operational Eurofighter Typhoon squadrons in Luftwaffe service, IRIS-T being the primary short range weapon for German Eurofighters.

please friend can you guide me where you got this article from. thank you. I need some more inf

 

[Muradk]

The weapon was to be named, IRIS-T, Infra Red Imagery Sidewinder Tail-controlled with workshare arrangements thus; Germay 46%, Italy 19%, Sweden 18%, Greece 13% the remainder split between Canada and Norway. The system would build upon BGT's involvement in production of the existing AIM-9 Sidewinder as well as its seeker work. As with ASRAAM the IRIS-T retains complete interoperability with AIM-9. Any aircraft capable of carrying and firing Sidewinder will be capable of launching IRIS-T.


BGT/SAAB/Alenia-Marconi IRIS-T

Although based on the AIM-9 design IRIS-T improves upon it quite substantially in practically every area. The missile consists of basically five sections; guidance, fuze, warhead, motor and tail control. The guidance section contains a BGT designed scanning imaging Indium-Antimonide infra-red sensor. The array has a resolution of 128 by 128 pixels which combined with digital signal processing (provided by a SAAB built DSP) gives the missile an ability to see its target and even aim for certain specific sections. In addition the seeker offers an off-boresight capability of 90 degrees in all directions. This gives it the ability to be launched over the shoulder via an appropriate cueing system (eg. a Helmet Mounted Sight), targetting data can also be taken from the launch platforms radar. Initial guidance is provided by a strap-down inertial navigation system built by Litton Italia. Behind the sensor sits an active radar based fuze built by Alenia-Marconi. This provides both range and range-rate information allowing the missile to detonate its warhead at a pre-determined distance form the target.

Next in line is a dual-layer High Explosive fragmentation warhead designed and built by Greece's GPCC. Behind this sit the main propulsion and control systems. A new motor built by FiatAvio of Italy and Nammo of Norway is included which utilises a smokeless propellant arranged in a star-shaped formation within the combustion chamber. This section also provides the attachment point for four wings providing additional lift. The rear most section, the responsibility of Canada's AlliedSignal contains the thrust vectoring nozzle as well as four fins. The nozzle, which provides for flight control utilises four vanes placed within the exhaust. By directly controlling the position of these the thrust can be vectored in any required direction. Such an arrangement provides a large increase in achievable manoueverability, turns in excess of 50g are made possible.

The Swedish Air Force has already commited to purchasing IRIS-T for its JAS-39 Gripen fleet when deliveries begin in 2002. To enable deployment SAAB-BAE Systems have already carried out test flights of a Helmet Mounted Sight for the Gripen allowing IRIS-T to be fully utilised. Beyond Germany and Sweden, Norway is also expected to purchase the weapon as a replacement for AIM-9 aboard its F-16's. In addition both Denmark and Belgium are interested in purchasing the weapon.

In October 2000 the first air launched firings of the missile occured from F-16's of the Hellenic Air Force. This was followed first in March 2002 by a pre-programmed launch against a drone target and later by a seeker guided firing in April 2002. The missile, launched from an F-4 Phantom flying off the coast of Sardinia successfully tracked and brought down the drone. According to BGT development remains on track and initial production versions of the missile are due to be made available by mid-2002 with full production occuring in late-2002/early-2003. IRIS-T is set to gain full operational clearance before the end of 2005. This date should mirror the first fully operational Eurofighter Typhoon squadrons in Luftwaffe service, IRIS-T being the primary short range weapon for German Eurofighters.

please friend can you guide me where you got this article from. thank you. I need some more info.

 

[Yukihime]

Whats a difference between SD-10 and US made AMRAAM, as Pakistan is going for AMRAAM with F-16's instead of SD-10. Surely AMRAAM would be a more capable missile and some reason for selection.

Why not go for further check about the negotiation between PAK and US guys?
First of all, there'er A,B,C three types of AIM-120 series as everyone knows.

Did uncle Sam said he would sell latest type of AIM-120 to PAK?
He only said some middle range A2A missiles besides 200 sidewinders right?
Dose everybody have the confidence that PAK has get TYPE AIM-120C since there'er even not enough AIM-120C in USAF ifself.

SD-10 - the export type of PL-12 has much better performence than AIM-120A/B even R-77, and is just a little lower than AIM-120C, according to Chief Engineer of PL-12 Project . The interview to the Chief Engineer above has been shown in almost every chinese millitary magzine and paper since it the missile was revealed, and also widely spread over the net so I don't want to debate with anyone on this opinion.

What's more, according to the Chief Engineer, as SD-10 was developed later than R-77 and even AIM-120A/B, it has more advanced processe unit and electronics to resist most kinds of the modern ECMs. On this field only AIM-120C and the MICA series can compare with SD-10. The range of a SD-10 is also undoutable because in their estimat the UNESCAPABLE RANGEs of a classified F-16 infront of a SD-10 and a AIM-120C are almost the same, even SD-10 wins by a little bit.

Sounds from the other side, by learning the actual size of a SD-10, US experts comfirmed that it's larger and cost more weight than AMRAAM.The developers of SD-10 also admitted than due to much more common materials used, SD-10 can support much less G-load which is up to 38G while the AMRAAM can bear 50G. But they said 38G is quite enough for pursuing a typical 3rd generation fighter and SD-10 is much more cheaper than AMRAAM which is a good news to many countries.

So I don't think most of the PAKs quite realize the performence and details of a SD-10/PL-12.
Just like US won't easily sell AIM-9X to a 3rd world country, they won't do this on AIM-120C either. Above all, they're all for F-22 and F-35, right?
But even compare to AMRAAM, a SD-10 still would be a good choice.
The chinese developers had also said they would put new material technology into their next generation LONG range A2A missle. So which country do u think will sell a real advanced missile to PAK, US or CHINA? And why don't PAK join in China's project of missile again since we already had so good a coorporation in JF-17 project?

 

[Owais]

Why not go for further check about the negotiation between PAK and US guys?
First of all, there'er A,B,C three types of AIM-120 series as everyone knows.

Did uncle Sam said he would sell latest type of AIM-120 to PAK?
He only said some middle range A2A missiles besides 200 sidewinders right?
Dose everybody have the confidence that PAK has get TYPE AIM-120C since there'er even not enough AIM-120C in USAF ifself.

SD-10 - the export type of PL-12 has much better performence than AIM-120A/B even R-77, and is just a little lower than AIM-120C, according to Chief Engineer of PL-12 Project . The interview to the Chief Engineer above has been shown in almost every chinese millitary magzine and paper since it the missile was revealed, and also widely spread over the net so I don't want to debate with anyone on this opinion.

What's more, according to the Chief Engineer, as SD-10 was developed later than R-77 and even AIM-120A/B, it has more advanced processe unit and electronics to resist most kinds of the modern ECMs. On this field only AIM-120C and the MICA series can compare with SD-10. The range of a SD-10 is also undoutable because in their estimat the UNESCAPABLE RANGEs of a classified F-16 infront of a SD-10 and a AIM-120C are almost the same, even SD-10 wins by a little bit.

Sounds from the other side, by learning the actual size of a SD-10, US experts comfirmed that it's larger and cost more weight than AMRAAM.The developers of SD-10 also admitted than due to much more common materials used, SD-10 can support much less G-load which is up to 38G while the AMRAAM can bear 50G. But they said 38G is quite enough for pursuing a typical 3rd generation fighter and SD-10 is much more cheaper than AMRAAM which is a good news to many countries.

So I don't think most of the PAKs quite realize the performence and details of a SD-10/PL-12.
Just like US won't easily sell AIM-9X to a 3rd world country, they won't do this on AIM-120C either. Above all, they're all for F-22 and F-35, right?
But even compare to AMRAAM, a SD-10 still would be a good choice.
The chinese developers had also said they would put new material technology into their next generation LONG range A2A missle. So which country do u think will sell a real advanced missile to PAK, US or CHINA? And why don't PAK join in China's project of missile again since we already had so good a coorporation in JF-17 project?

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
12 AMRAAM training missiles
these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
240 LAU-129/A Launchers
these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1878.html

 

[Yukihime]

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
12 AMRAAM training missiles
these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
240 LAU-129/A Launchers
these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1878.html

Thanks for the info u supplied and it seems this time there are some points about conditions of aim-120 and also this trade that I have ignored.
The info about SD-10 in my post is still exactly the truth. Although AIM-120C may be more mature, it dosen't have longer range than SD-10 and also wouldn't win much on electronics.
In fact what I want to say is still that even compare to a AIM-120CX, SD-10 would be a unneglectable opponent.:army:

BTW, since Singapore had just got only 50 AIM-120C5 and Canada would reduce its amount of the same missile to less than 78, if PAK REALLY make this 500-missiles trade come true, the Raytheon Company will laugh for a long time from now on...

 

[Averroes]

And why don't PAK join in China's project of missile again since we already had so good a coorporation in JF-17 project?

I agree, but I think Chinese have much much more experience in AAM department.

:army:

 

[Yukihime]

I agree, but I think Chinese have much much more experience in AAM department.

:army:

China also has much more experience in jet fighter developing right?
But finally PAF has got FC-1 plus SD-10, so u don't need to have a equal level of technology because there're far more ways of COOPERATE.

 

[melb4aust]

I agree, but I think Chinese have much much more experience in AAM department.

:army:

Come on guyz how can you say that, they have too much experience in developing AC's and missiles. You can't actually compare them with US or Russia yet. It will take some time, but they will be very soon in near future :thumbsup: ....

 

[araz]

Come on guyz how can you say that, they have too much experience in developing AC's and missiles. You can't actually compare them with US or Russia yet. It will take some time, but they will be very soon in near future :thumbsup: ....

As Salam O alaikum.
I would support your comment. China is really new to the AAM business. It has made immense progress in the last decade mostly developing further on Technologies integrated from the Russians and some European countries. It is interesting to note that they do a lot of research in every field, and choose the best candidate after a healthy competition.This policy has resulted in immense progression in every technology. However, they still have some way to go.
Wa Salam
Araz