Education is not a Solution

[Sine Nomine]

@Reddington my very dear YoungPak,


Allow me to thank you for the tag. Always thought provoking perspectives... always this clarity... it is a delight!

@Shane is another YoungPak, 'suffering' from this kind of clarity!!! It makes me happy....

The fundamental question is what is education? What is the purpose of education?

Engineering is training. Medicine is training. Gene Editing is training. MBA is training... AgroSciences is training... on and on...

Degrees are perhaps a paper cloth to hide intellectual nakedness of the graduates... it almost universal.

Education is something fundamentally different... the ability to think with originality... that comes through experience and reflections... Ability to speak/write in English is considered education in Pakistan.

There was a report about the relevance of graducation subjects to job market in Pakistan... disparity is quite alarming.

Training. Training. Training...

Before being able to answer your question it is imperative to understand who/what we are as Nation.

Feudalism. Feudals. Rulers. Ruled.

Pak is an extremely feudal society... even those who go to oxford to graducate... remain feudal... have a look at writer of Indus Saga standing behind a feudal overlord bacha... or Noora flying away in Air Ambulance... and this is not limited to these two... every political party is such.

Ditto for religious parties...

And need I show you the MarasiParliment... what do you see?

In office environment, public or private, you shall find this pervailant feudalism on display.... hence the police is an enforcing thuggery than to Protect n Serve.

Feudalism in education as well. So the fundamental role of education in National Life is non-existent.

You shall see it in Lawyers Chambers or in doctors associations...

Let us call it our culture. This what we are!

And this is reflected in Nizam... recent bleeding-heart treatment of judiciary to Noora Flies To Londonistan Plan ... is a minor case in point. Feudalism!

PakArmedForces work because there is NO space for feudalism there ... otherwise, they would be like Punjab or Sindh police... Why you might ask?

Industrialism

Industrialism => Industrialisation => Industry => Industrial Economy (@RIWWIR )

Have a look at NL... small country with less population than Karachi and economy bigger than entire Pakistan. Per acre yield is far higher than Pakistan an agricultural country since last 5000 years at least. Why?

NL is one of the biggest exporter of milk/cheese/meat and other farms related industrial products... and then there is machinery and chemicals... services as well.

Britain's Industrial Revolution was the key to its social revolution... long working hours, women, men, childeren... no rights... filthy conditions... primarily a feudal setup with machines replacing the farms...

Yet Britain never truly became an country of Industrialism. This honour belongs to only two nations.

Japan and Germany. Both highly feudal when they started the journey... Japan, even today, is quite feudal in its nature and culture... Germany not so much.. but impulse is there and is visibly in their heirachical culture/management style.

If you study closely Chinese are a highly feudal society...even today... old feudalism replace with new... CPC. Their transformational growth is indictive of this approach... while Ganguz could not.

In growth one needs to isolate Drivers.

Now if you look closely the Chinese plan of industrial revolution 3.0 is highly betting on Artifical Intelligence and innovation driven, high value add, products... in other words they are trying to implement, transform, to the next stage of Industrialism... Germany has a similar plan... so does Japan... but Japanese have no babies...

It would be highly educational to study last six 5YearsPlan of PRC... you shall find a consistent line and be able to analyse the strategies, polices to the stage they are in today.

Would be nice if our coconut babuz could studies these 5YearPlans and try to learn, sythesise them to Pak's economic and social needs @Sine Nomine @ps3linux @graphican

Now we have about 9 SEZs and some work has started there.. but we don't have a Plan. NO. We don't have any plan. I have highlighted this in The Ugly Truth about PakEconomy ... if you recall.

Since, we are degree holder, CSS passed.... uneducated, backward lot... we don't have a Plan.

Take a look at PakRailways... ML2... Sheikhoo is da minister... doesn't know jack about systems.. logistics, innovations or future trends... the max speed is going to be around 200+/- ... where as China is moving towards HSR... imagine after ten, fifteen years an new tender for HSR in Pakistan... because nobody has bothered to Plan.

PR officers are basically three feudal factions... all making money by selling stuff and jobs... and higher ups going to Canada after retimenet to live life of millionaires... non is specialist or Phd ...in modern transprotations...

Reverse Engineering the Future

2050. 63% of Pak population will be hitting around 50 by then and their kids will be in late teens or early twenties. What kinda of country we NEED by then?

This is The Fundamental Question. As 63% would entering last decade and half of productive life and about same % would be reading to gear up for productive life or thereabouts...

What kind of country do we NEEB by then?

This is a question way beyond the limits of present MarasiUnitedFront aka all PoliticalParties ... as the Nizam they function in is inheritly imprisoning development, growth and industrialisation... The Drivers are missing!

In essence it is the responsibility of the PakState to Reverse Engineer the Future from 2050 to 2020. Develop a comprehensive roadmap and break it down into six 5YearsPlanz ... and have them followed through with Danda!

Only then we shall be able to see the relevance of right education... only then we shall be able to educate.

We need a Plan!

Now what is Industrialism... I shall leave it to your imagination for now!!!

Mangus

@PakSword @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus @WebMaster @Signalian @Khafee @niaz @messiach @HRK @Dubious @Dazzler

Thanks for tag,I hold opinion that,without total bringing down of this colonial system our people would continue to survive their lives rather than living them.
This system is designed to checkmate slaves,use them as slave labourars,slave guards and canon fooders.It has been very well doing that for past 200+ years.
It is made to take juice out of everyone which is meant for drinking of few.
Without changing whole of this system,we would still be here even after 1000 years.
We have to develop our own system,we need to understand that our people are different from other regions,200 years of direct and indirect slavery is driving them mad and they would explode one day.
About all Political Parties,they are given birth by same Anglo-saxon womb which has given birth to this whole system in place.
When you look back into time,you would see ancestors of almost 80% today's politicans standing beside Gora Sahab in 1857 war for independence.
You can still see most of them find refuge in UK.

 

[niaz]

@Reddington my very dear YoungPak,


Allow me to thank you for the tag. Always thought provoking perspectives... always this clarity... it is a delight!

@Shane is another YoungPak, 'suffering' from this kind of clarity!!! It makes me happy....

The fundamental question is what is education? What is the purpose of education?

Engineering is training. Medicine is training. Gene Editing is training. MBA is training... AgroSciences is training... on and on...

Degrees are perhaps a paper cloth to hide intellectual nakedness of the graduates... it almost universal.

Education is something fundamentally different... the ability to think with originality... that comes through experience and reflections... Ability to speak/write in English is considered education in Pakistan.

There was a report about the relevance of graducation subjects to job market in Pakistan... disparity is quite alarming.

Training. Training. Training...

Before being able to answer your question it is imperative to understand who/what we are as Nation.

Feudalism. Feudals. Rulers. Ruled.

Pak is an extremely feudal society... even those who go to oxford to graducate... remain feudal... have a look at writer of Indus Saga standing behind a feudal overlord bacha... or Noora flying away in Air Ambulance... and this is not limited to these two... every political party is such.

Ditto for religious parties...

And need I show you the MarasiParliment... what do you see?

In office environment, public or private, you shall find this pervailant feudalism on display.... hence the police is an enforcing thuggery than to Protect n Serve.

Feudalism in education as well. So the fundamental role of education in National Life is non-existent.

You shall see it in Lawyers Chambers or in doctors associations...

Let us call it our culture. This what we are!

And this is reflected in Nizam... recent bleeding-heart treatment of judiciary to Noora Flies To Londonistan Plan ... is a minor case in point. Feudalism!

PakArmedForces work because there is NO space for feudalism there ... otherwise, they would be like Punjab or Sindh police... Why you might ask?

Industrialism

Industrialism => Industrialisation => Industry => Industrial Economy (@RIWWIR )

Have a look at NL... small country with less population than Karachi and economy bigger than entire Pakistan. Per acre yield is far higher than Pakistan an agricultural country since last 5000 years at least. Why?

NL is one of the biggest exporter of milk/cheese/meat and other farms related industrial products... and then there is machinery and chemicals... services as well.

Britain's Industrial Revolution was the key to its social revolution... long working hours, women, men, childeren... no rights... filthy conditions... primarily a feudal setup with machines replacing the farms...

Yet Britain never truly became an country of Industrialism. This honour belongs to only two nations.

Japan and Germany. Both highly feudal when they started the journey... Japan, even today, is quite feudal in its nature and culture... Germany not so much.. but impulse is there and is visibly in their heirachical culture/management style.

If you study closely Chinese are a highly feudal society...even today... old feudalism replace with new... CPC. Their transformational growth is indictive of this approach... while Ganguz could not.

In growth one needs to isolate Drivers.

Now if you look closely the Chinese plan of industrial revolution 3.0 is highly betting on Artifical Intelligence and innovation driven, high value add, products... in other words they are trying to implement, transform, to the next stage of Industrialism... Germany has a similar plan... so does Japan... but Japanese have no babies...

It would be highly educational to study last six 5YearsPlan of PRC... you shall find a consistent line and be able to analyse the strategies, polices to the stage they are in today.

Would be nice if our coconut babuz could studies these 5YearPlans and try to learn, sythesise them to Pak's economic and social needs @Sine Nomine @ps3linux @graphican

Now we have about 9 SEZs and some work has started there.. but we don't have a Plan. NO. We don't have any plan. I have highlighted this in The Ugly Truth about PakEconomy ... if you recall.

Since, we are degree holder, CSS passed.... uneducated, backward lot... we don't have a Plan.

Take a look at PakRailways... ML2... Sheikhoo is da minister... doesn't know jack about systems.. logistics, innovations or future trends... the max speed is going to be around 200+/- ... where as China is moving towards HSR... imagine after ten, fifteen years an new tender for HSR in Pakistan... because nobody has bothered to Plan.

PR officers are basically three feudal factions... all making money by selling stuff and jobs... and higher ups going to Canada after retimenet to live life of millionaires... non is specialist or Phd ...in modern transprotations...

Reverse Engineering the Future

2050. 63% of Pak population will be hitting around 50 by then and their kids will be in late teens or early twenties. What kinda of country we NEED by then?

This is The Fundamental Question. As 63% would entering last decade and half of productive life and about same % would be reading to gear up for productive life or thereabouts...

What kind of country do we NEEB by then?

This is a question way beyond the limits of present MarasiUnitedFront aka all PoliticalParties ... as the Nizam they function in is inheritly imprisoning development, growth and industrialisation... The Drivers are missing!

In essence it is the responsibility of the PakState to Reverse Engineer the Future from 2050 to 2020. Develop a comprehensive roadmap and break it down into six 5YearsPlanz ... and have them followed through with Danda!

Only then we shall be able to see the relevance of right education... only then we shall be able to educate.

We need a Plan!

Now what is Industrialism... I shall leave it to your imagination for now!!!

Mangus

@PakSword @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus @WebMaster @Signalian @Khafee @niaz @messiach @HRK @Dubious @Dazzler

Honorable Sir,

First, let me thank you for the honor of asking my opinion on this topic. Please be warned that I am an old man and my ideas may be dated. You have raised many points and I shall attempt to comment on these in a random manner.

IMO comparison with countries quoted by you with Pakistan is unfair. Holland has 5 universities in the top 100 ( University of Amsterdam, Utrecht University, Erasmus University, Leiden University, VU University, Wageningen University & Research Centre, University of Groningen and Redbud University). Germany has 10 Universities in the top 100 with 2 (Technical University of Munich & Heidelberg University) in the top 50. Pakistan has none and only 2 in the top 200.


Despite the fact that feudalism implies a largely agrarian society; I don’t think that Feudalism ‘per se’ is a bar in industrial progress. After all, the Industrial Revolution (1760 – 1830) was born in Britain, until then a Feudalistic society. In the East, Japan was also staunchly feudalistic. In my humble opinion, ‘Laissez-faire’ capitalism as advocated by Adam Smith was the spark that resulted in the birth of industrial revolution and entrepreneurship. Therefore gov’t interference and too much control could be one of the causes of lack of economic development.

Walt Whitman Rostow in his famous economic growth model suggested countries go through five stages of economic growth: (i) the traditional society (ii) the preconditions for take-off (iii) the take-off (iv) the drive to maturity (v) the age of high mass consumption. The third and most important stage being the ‘Take-Off’ stage:

“Take-off is an industrial revolution, tied directly to radical changes in methods of production, having their decisive consequences over a relatively short period of time”

Here the economy becomes self-reliant, which is when the economy starts generating sufficient savings to enable economic development to continue without outside assistance.

In my humble opinion, thus far Pakistan has not reached the take-off stage. It is said that the DGP growth rate is normally half of the percentage of domestic savings, in other words, a nation needs to save 10% of the GDP to generate sufficient funds for re-investment to achieve a 5% growth rate. Regrettably, per the World Bank Data, Gross Domestic Saving in Pakistan for the year 2018 was only 5.5% hence GDP growth forecast for Pakistan for 2019 is less than 3%.

This brings up the problem of ‘Reverse Engineering’. It is only the countries that have reached the ‘Take-off' stage that has the capability to ‘reverse engineer’ most of the imported products and reduce the reliance on the importation.

Anyone who has studied for an MBA (as I did in1970s) must have come across Schumpeter and would agree that entrepreneurs play a key role in economic growth and development. However, having new entrepreneurs alone is not enough. About 30% of the new business ventures fail during the first and 50% during the first five years. It is only about one-third of the new businesses that really succeed and continue beyond 10 years. This could be due to bad planning, having too little venture capital, bad location, and change of market conditions as well as a change of gov’t policies etc. In the developing countries, in particular, odds are against the entrepreneurs who diversify into the non-traditional areas because a higher level of skilled labour and educated labour that are available are needed to ‘catch up’ with the advanced technology & production of the developed countries

NAB may be very good in the eyes of those who view corruption as the ‘sole’ cause for Pakistan’s economic ills, none the less, in a country where you can’t even get an Income Tax Clearance Certificate or a Land Registration document without greasing palms of somebody; fear of NAB putting anyone behind bars without bringing any charges against him for months, has discouraged the entrepreneurship to no end.

IMHO Education and training go hand in hand. Education alone may not be the answer but the right kind of education combined with training is. Additionally, we need to induce Pakistanis to save more, also GOP should formulate stable & investor-friendly policies and amend the NAB ordinance whereby no one should be put behind bars for more than 7 days without being charged.

 

[ziaulislam]

Only economic growth creates jobs. Education without economic growth would just increase unemployment. That's what is said by the writer.
@Mangus Ortus Novem

well obviously the writer is an idiot
banking sector, social sector, IT, retail and consumption all need basic knowledge..this is not the 1800s/1900 where raw manufacturing is the economy

 

[messiach]

First get the babu-bureacracy out of the way. 90% of your problems will disappear. The resolve is in your hands.

@Reddington my very dear YoungPak,


Allow me to thank you for the tag. Always thought provoking perspectives... always this clarity... it is a delight!

@Shane is another YoungPak, 'suffering' from this kind of clarity!!! It makes me happy....

The fundamental question is what is education? What is the purpose of education?

Engineering is training. Medicine is training. Gene Editing is training. MBA is training... AgroSciences is training... on and on...

Degrees are perhaps a paper cloth to hide intellectual nakedness of the graduates... it almost universal.

Education is something fundamentally different... the ability to think with originality... that comes through experience and reflections... Ability to speak/write in English is considered education in Pakistan.

There was a report about the relevance of graducation subjects to job market in Pakistan... disparity is quite alarming.

Training. Training. Training...

Before being able to answer your question it is imperative to understand who/what we are as Nation.

Feudalism. Feudals. Rulers. Ruled.

Pak is an extremely feudal society... even those who go to oxford to graducate... remain feudal... have a look at writer of Indus Saga standing behind a feudal overlord bacha... or Noora flying away in Air Ambulance... and this is not limited to these two... every political party is such.

Ditto for religious parties...

And need I show you the MarasiParliment... what do you see?

In office environment, public or private, you shall find this pervailant feudalism on display.... hence the police is an enforcing thuggery than to Protect n Serve.

Feudalism in education as well. So the fundamental role of education in National Life is non-existent.

You shall see it in Lawyers Chambers or in doctors associations...

Let us call it our culture. This what we are!

And this is reflected in Nizam... recent bleeding-heart treatment of judiciary to Noora Flies To Londonistan Plan ... is a minor case in point. Feudalism!

PakArmedForces work because there is NO space for feudalism there ... otherwise, they would be like Punjab or Sindh police... Why you might ask?

Industrialism

Industrialism => Industrialisation => Industry => Industrial Economy (@RIWWIR )

Have a look at NL... small country with less population than Karachi and economy bigger than entire Pakistan. Per acre yield is far higher than Pakistan an agricultural country since last 5000 years at least. Why?

NL is one of the biggest exporter of milk/cheese/meat and other farms related industrial products... and then there is machinery and chemicals... services as well.

Britain's Industrial Revolution was the key to its social revolution... long working hours, women, men, childeren... no rights... filthy conditions... primarily a feudal setup with machines replacing the farms...

Yet Britain never truly became an country of Industrialism. This honour belongs to only two nations.

Japan and Germany. Both highly feudal when they started the journey... Japan, even today, is quite feudal in its nature and culture... Germany not so much.. but impulse is there and is visibly in their heirachical culture/management style.

If you study closely Chinese are a highly feudal society...even today... old feudalism replace with new... CPC. Their transformational growth is indictive of this approach... while Ganguz could not.

In growth one needs to isolate Drivers.

Now if you look closely the Chinese plan of industrial revolution 3.0 is highly betting on Artifical Intelligence and innovation driven, high value add, products... in other words they are trying to implement, transform, to the next stage of Industrialism... Germany has a similar plan... so does Japan... but Japanese have no babies...

It would be highly educational to study last six 5YearsPlan of PRC... you shall find a consistent line and be able to analyse the strategies, polices to the stage they are in today.

Would be nice if our coconut babuz could studies these 5YearPlans and try to learn, sythesise them to Pak's economic and social needs @Sine Nomine @ps3linux @graphican

Now we have about 9 SEZs and some work has started there.. but we don't have a Plan. NO. We don't have any plan. I have highlighted this in The Ugly Truth about PakEconomy ... if you recall.

Since, we are degree holder, CSS passed.... uneducated, backward lot... we don't have a Plan.

Take a look at PakRailways... ML2... Sheikhoo is da minister... doesn't know jack about systems.. logistics, innovations or future trends... the max speed is going to be around 200+/- ... where as China is moving towards HSR... imagine after ten, fifteen years an new tender for HSR in Pakistan... because nobody has bothered to Plan.

PR officers are basically three feudal factions... all making money by selling stuff and jobs... and higher ups going to Canada after retimenet to live life of millionaires... non is specialist or Phd ...in modern transprotations...

Reverse Engineering the Future

2050. 63% of Pak population will be hitting around 50 by then and their kids will be in late teens or early twenties. What kinda of country we NEED by then?

This is The Fundamental Question. As 63% would entering last decade and half of productive life and about same % would be reading to gear up for productive life or thereabouts...

What kind of country do we NEEB by then?

This is a question way beyond the limits of present MarasiUnitedFront aka all PoliticalParties ... as the Nizam they function in is inheritly imprisoning development, growth and industrialisation... The Drivers are missing!

In essence it is the responsibility of the PakState to Reverse Engineer the Future from 2050 to 2020. Develop a comprehensive roadmap and break it down into six 5YearsPlanz ... and have them followed through with Danda!

Only then we shall be able to see the relevance of right education... only then we shall be able to educate.

We need a Plan!

Now what is Industrialism... I shall leave it to your imagination for now!!!

Mangus

@PakSword @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus @WebMaster @Signalian @Khafee @niaz @messiach @HRK @Dubious @Dazzler

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

With the current revolution in information... very soon the way of passing knowledge will change fundamentally. Schools and a mandated curriculum and certain way of ethic/etiquette will perish along with it... I say good riddance! Past two centuries have hurt human potential in innumerable ways. Most importantly in flourishing human endeavor and regressing humanity into line workers good for nothing just to make ends meet. One wonders why or how the greatest minds or greatest thought occurred prior to industrial or more aptly financial revolution. To appreciate local wisdom and trades ... one will have to bring humanity back to the fore and appreciate those skills that took millennia to build and civilization to perfect. A separation is the call du jour, that of trades, arts, crafts, books and literature, ethics and mores. That is how children when they grow up will find there niches and not become robots turning screws. That is how faithful will be able to live with faith and not become traders of faith.

 

[Reddington]

well obviously the writer is an idiot
banking sector, social sector, IT, retail and consumption all need basic knowledge..this is not the 1800s/1900 where raw manufacturing is the economy

I agree. But you still haven't understood what was said in OP.
I explained it in detail here in post # 34. Have a look.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/education-is-not-a-solution.628626/page-3#post-11898281

 

[Counter-Errorist]

Social Safety Net
I would like to add a missing link between education and prosperity

------------------

A trained engineer, doctor, even an artist in Pakistan is forced into the massive meat grinding churn of low-grade employment. They spend their lives laboring for old-school corporations that benefit from the status quo. They retire with nothing to show for it.

People keep asking...

• Why our engineers are not inventing anything?!
• Why are these highly educated doctors not researching new medicine?!
• Why are our artists not creating art worthy of global attention?!
• Where are our entrepreneurs?!

Inventions, research, art and entrepreneurship requires climbing tall flimsy greasy poles to get to the top.
You have to fall a few times before you can get up and climb again.
Without a safety net, the first fall renders in you enough trauma that you're unable to climb again.

Depending on your position in society, your family is either a burden to carry along honorably, or your best safety net. Those with stable well-earning families go on to do something new and meaningful. Those with the burden are forced to get ground up in the industrial meat grinder.

The only way our people can become innovative and build for the future is if we ease that burden on people. They need a social safety net, for them and their families.

What does that safety net entail? Basic amenities:

1. Free / low-cost health facilities.
2. Free / low-cost education.
3. Proper housing.
4. Food, water, clothing, electricity.

A person's illness should not put them in unsustainable debt.
A person having children should not bring about an unbearable cost to their daily lives.
No person should have to worry about their daily meals, roof over their heads, proper sanitation, and electricity.
Senior citizens and orphans should get the necessary care.

All in all, people deserve to live a life where they feel respected, equal and free of stress.

That's when we start getting surprised by the inventions, research and businesses our people have been silently dreaming of.

 

[Reddington]

A high quality education is of the most benefit - if there is a market where you can sell your skills, or you have capital to take advantage of that education. In isolation, even being Einstein would be useless. He didn't write any papers on an empty stomache.

Agreed. The point that Azad was making in his YouTube videos was that China didn't become an industrial superpower by opening universities all over China and churning out worthless degrees. China became an industrial superpower by opening vocational education/technical training institutes that gave rise to skilled workers which in turn made China what we see today.

The problem with Pakistan is that there are too many universities churning out tons of degrees which have no value in real life. Just a useless piece of paper. The graduates do not have the skill which is needed in real life.
To become an industrialized nation, we need to reduce universities and exponentially increase vocational educational institutes all over Pakistan.

I am not an expert in economy/finance but I have read some books on industrialization especially regarding the rise of China as an industrial superpower. The graduate to skilled worker ratio in China till early 90's was much much lower than today; while number of graduates started increasing as China was about to enter second industrial revolution in late 90's. Whereas in Pakistan there are more graduates than the skilled workers. And we are not even an industrialized nation.

Pakistan hasn't even fully activated the first Industrial revolution which generally means to become a manufacturing hub of textile manufacturing and light consumer goods.

Then comes the second industrial revolution which is to become a manufacturing hub in heavy manufacturing i.e. automobile, ships, high peed rail, energy, chemicals etc.
More universities are only needed when a country is entering the second industrial revolution. We are nowhere near that.

What we need is to open more and more vocational training institutes.

@Mangus Ortus Novem

Reverse Engineering the Future

Industrialism => Industrialisation => Industry => Industrial Economy

100% agreed.

 

[ps3linux]

For all the low IQ people who couldn't understand what is written in OP; I will explain even in more simpler terms.

The worthless degrees being churned out in truckloads by the universities are increasing unemployment in Pakistan. That's a fact because those so called educated persons can not find jobs after graduation. Why? Because they don't have the skills. Instead of opening universities to milk cash; why not open vocational centers and technical institutes all over Pakistan. Why can't a nation of 220 million people whose 60% of populace is under 30 can not make electronics, machinery etc? Why do we have to import all those things from China?

Please watch these videos. These videos explain the problems of our education system and why our youth is unemployed.

@Simurgh @Mangus Ortus Novem @313ghazi @zulu Your comments would be appreciated.

Regards!

Excellent thread and material, interesting topic and I will try and contribute to the thread by profession my job could be categorized as a line manager in sales/marketing of financial products. As such I interview at-least 20 people a week, your words are polite but mine what I have in mind exactly are pure profanity what I think of this sick/stupid education system. The entire foundation of the education system is based upon evaluating the memory of the students rather than understanding, there is no career counselling except for very expensive schools and universities and there too it is ridiculous. There is no system of studying the future demands for a particular specialty, the numbers I mean its cruel to find a mechanical engineer applying for the post of an entry level sales job because he couldn't find any job in his own field. I come across candidates with BS-IT, MBA-HR applying for entry level sales job and they have no real insights of their own education, MBA finance rarely have an idea on economics/finance they all did this because someone told them this education had great potential for finding a job.

As per my younger son who is about 17 now, has seen the elite education system of Pakistan and public education system of US and Canada, the entire education system is flawed, it can only create slaves of the system. Pakistan's education system is outdated by a 100 years, teachers want to test your memory, they don't want you to think or analyze beyond their edicts because they too are product of this system, this entire system is focused on finding "jobs" after education no tips/tricks to start a business, no introduction with the real life parameters, there is no room for experiments/new theories. Just the same yard stick for every one, one shoe fits all approach.

There is an extreme shortage of trained/certified electrician, pipe fitter, wood crafter, motor mechanic they all come under vocational training as you have mentioned, this useless MBA/BBA is creating a whole crop of good for nothing unfortunates, who eventually end up doing menial jobs and personally I feel sorry for them. with the upcoming 37 SEZs the requirement for these vocational experts is going to grow exponentially.

@Mangus Ortus Novem More later, still adjusting to jet lag.

 

[ps3linux]

@Reddington my very dear YoungPak,


Allow me to thank you for the tag. Always thought provoking perspectives... always this clarity... it is a delight!

@Shane is another YoungPak, 'suffering' from this kind of clarity!!! It makes me happy....

The fundamental question is what is education? What is the purpose of education?

Engineering is training. Medicine is training. Gene Editing is training. MBA is training... AgroSciences is training... on and on...

Degrees are perhaps a paper cloth to hide intellectual nakedness of the graduates... it almost universal.

Education is something fundamentally different... the ability to think with originality... that comes through experience and reflections... Ability to speak/write in English is considered education in Pakistan.

There was a report about the relevance of graducation subjects to job market in Pakistan... disparity is quite alarming.

Training. Training. Training...

Before being able to answer your question it is imperative to understand who/what we are as Nation.

Feudalism. Feudals. Rulers. Ruled.

Pak is an extremely feudal society... even those who go to oxford to graducate... remain feudal... have a look at writer of Indus Saga standing behind a feudal overlord bacha... or Noora flying away in Air Ambulance... and this is not limited to these two... every political party is such.

Ditto for religious parties...

And need I show you the MarasiParliment... what do you see?

In office environment, public or private, you shall find this pervailant feudalism on display.... hence the police is an enforcing thuggery than to Protect n Serve.

Feudalism in education as well. So the fundamental role of education in National Life is non-existent.

You shall see it in Lawyers Chambers or in doctors associations...

Let us call it our culture. This what we are!

And this is reflected in Nizam... recent bleeding-heart treatment of judiciary to Noora Flies To Londonistan Plan ... is a minor case in point. Feudalism!

PakArmedForces work because there is NO space for feudalism there ... otherwise, they would be like Punjab or Sindh police... Why you might ask?

Industrialism

Industrialism => Industrialisation => Industry => Industrial Economy (@RIWWIR )

Have a look at NL... small country with less population than Karachi and economy bigger than entire Pakistan. Per acre yield is far higher than Pakistan an agricultural country since last 5000 years at least. Why?

NL is one of the biggest exporter of milk/cheese/meat and other farms related industrial products... and then there is machinery and chemicals... services as well.

Britain's Industrial Revolution was the key to its social revolution... long working hours, women, men, childeren... no rights... filthy conditions... primarily a feudal setup with machines replacing the farms...

Yet Britain never truly became an country of Industrialism. This honour belongs to only two nations.

Japan and Germany. Both highly feudal when they started the journey... Japan, even today, is quite feudal in its nature and culture... Germany not so much.. but impulse is there and is visibly in their heirachical culture/management style.

If you study closely Chinese are a highly feudal society...even today... old feudalism replace with new... CPC. Their transformational growth is indictive of this approach... while Ganguz could not.

In growth one needs to isolate Drivers.

Now if you look closely the Chinese plan of industrial revolution 3.0 is highly betting on Artifical Intelligence and innovation driven, high value add, products... in other words they are trying to implement, transform, to the next stage of Industrialism... Germany has a similar plan... so does Japan... but Japanese have no babies...

It would be highly educational to study last six 5YearsPlan of PRC... you shall find a consistent line and be able to analyse the strategies, polices to the stage they are in today.

Would be nice if our coconut babuz could studies these 5YearPlans and try to learn, sythesise them to Pak's economic and social needs @Sine Nomine @ps3linux @graphican

Now we have about 9 SEZs and some work has started there.. but we don't have a Plan. NO. We don't have any plan. I have highlighted this in The Ugly Truth about PakEconomy ... if you recall.

Since, we are degree holder, CSS passed.... uneducated, backward lot... we don't have a Plan.

Take a look at PakRailways... ML2... Sheikhoo is da minister... doesn't know jack about systems.. logistics, innovations or future trends... the max speed is going to be around 200+/- ... where as China is moving towards HSR... imagine after ten, fifteen years an new tender for HSR in Pakistan... because nobody has bothered to Plan.

PR officers are basically three feudal factions... all making money by selling stuff and jobs... and higher ups going to Canada after retimenet to live life of millionaires... non is specialist or Phd ...in modern transprotations...

Reverse Engineering the Future

2050. 63% of Pak population will be hitting around 50 by then and their kids will be in late teens or early twenties. What kinda of country we NEED by then?

This is The Fundamental Question. As 63% would entering last decade and half of productive life and about same % would be reading to gear up for productive life or thereabouts...

What kind of country do we NEEB by then?

This is a question way beyond the limits of present MarasiUnitedFront aka all PoliticalParties ... as the Nizam they function in is inheritly imprisoning development, growth and industrialisation... The Drivers are missing!

In essence it is the responsibility of the PakState to Reverse Engineer the Future from 2050 to 2020. Develop a comprehensive roadmap and break it down into six 5YearsPlanz ... and have them followed through with Danda!

Only then we shall be able to see the relevance of right education... only then we shall be able to educate.

We need a Plan!

Now what is Industrialism... I shall leave it to your imagination for now!!!

Mangus

@PakSword @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus @WebMaster @Signalian @Khafee @niaz @messiach @HRK @Dubious @Dazzler

@PakSword @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus @WebMaster @Signalian @Khafee @niaz @messiach @HRK @Dubious @Dazzler, @Mangus Ortus Novem

I have always wondered what triggered the industrialization drive British definitely were the prime drivers of industrialization, industrial revolution and industrial economy and I’ll request the experts here to please help me conclude this thought.

My theory is change always comes through (call change anything ideas, innovation, invention, etc) an underlying dissatisfaction an acknowledgement that there is something wrong with what we have right now, or a genuine concern/desire to improve things, may be it was due to centuries of oppression by the church on scientific knowledge or the British as colonials experience with rest of the world or a combination of both or the rebellious nature due to corrupt incompetent bureaucrats/aristocracy or the natural sense of exploring new things/ideas, but when I look at historical archives I find British of the 18th and 19th century were some of the most innovative people on earth, like the Americans used to be in the 20th century. Second part of innovation is the environment; does the environment the society encourages/accepts innovation. I think while there was lot of resistance to new ideas but generally there were lot of financiers ready to put their money on new ideas.

It is difficult for me to conclude the age old debate of “egg or chicken first”, same way what comes first education or industrialization/innovation, ideally education should come first but practicality tell me that’s our whole education system a colonial tool to curb all dissent/discussions/innovation, come to think of it most of the Islamic world shares the same thing.

When I look at Islamic history and tried to find where did the wheel of innovation stopped and I come to something like 600-700 years back, it is where asking questions, challenging ideas started being discouraged be it religious knowledge be it knowledge. Knowledge/ideas became cast in stone attributed to someone whose edicts could not be challenged, philosophically I think that is the tipping point where a society starts a southward journey, there hasn’t been an ijtehad for over 300 years now. The edicts of people belonging to the past ae holier than the actual religion and that is the same for education as well.

I always had some question when it came to religion, serious ones though but whenever I tried to put if before someone I was always discouraged some of the answers I found out for myself and did put them here under the heading of “the logical Islam” did about 13 – 14 years ago so it does require a lot of rework.

https://abidrehan.wordpress.com/home/the-logical-islam/

It is the same with education, children want to challenge lot of the theories, knowledge but it is due to our system they are always afraid the parents, the society, the teachers. Ideally I would say once people from suburbs come to cities for education/business in an ideal circumstance they should go back to their suburb and try to improve it, but it doesn’t happen, does it because they do not want to go back and try and change thing, take up an uphill task, challenge traditions which in their society could be bloody violent.

Although there are rebels, who have the temerity/perseverance to challenge set order of things, but honestly they don’t spend a comfortable life. Parents in my opinion are the worst of offenders, they always discourage their children from asking too many questions and that is where innovation is killed at the root.

Our whole education system is outdated there is education but there is no concept of tutelage, the questioning, the challenging, at times I feel myself extremely lucky to have completed my college/uni education in a different system one where asking questions challenging ideas and theories is not frowned upon rather encouraged and at the same time I feel extremely sorry for the youth of this country. Education mafia is churning out these fresh graduates with zero reality of the life in practical, when they come out of educational institution they are in an idealistic world that the professional world desperately needs them, they will be given a room, a car a cell phone, laptop a pretty secretary and all they have to do is give orders. Some do realize the harsh realities of life much early while others never could cope with it.

Our whole system is based upon what I call dehari baaz, or daily wages system pass today and we'll see about tomorrow later.

Whole education system requires an overhaul, in tandem the society too needs an overhaul in ourselves particularly to new ideas, question those who challenge the set order of things.

More on it some other time, I think that’s enough for early morning today.

These are my opinion please feel free to add, critique, they are in no way cast in stone.

 

[The Accountant]

Agreed. The point that Azad was making in his YouTube videos was that China didn't become an industrial superpower by opening universities all over China and churning out worthless degrees. China became an industrial superpower by opening vocational education/technical training institutes that gave rise to skilled workers which in turn made China what we see today.

The problem with Pakistan is that there are too many universities churning out tons of degrees which have no value in real life. Just a useless piece of paper. The graduates do not have the skill which is needed in real life.
To become an industrialized nation, we need to reduce universities and exponentially increase vocational educational institutes all over Pakistan.

I am not an expert in economy/finance but I have read some books on industrialization especially regarding the rise of China as an industrial superpower. The graduate to skilled worker ratio in China till early 90's was much much lower than today; while number of graduates started increasing as China was about to enter second industrial revolution in late 90's. Whereas in Pakistan there are more graduates than the skilled workers. And we are not even an industrialized nation.

Pakistan hasn't even fully activated the first Industrial revolution which generally means to become a manufacturing hub of textile manufacturing and light consumer goods.

Then comes the second industrial revolution which is to become a manufacturing hub in heavy manufacturing i.e. automobile, ships, high peed rail, energy, chemicals etc.
More universities are only needed when a country is entering the second industrial revolution. We are nowhere near that.

What we need is to open more and more vocational training institutes.

@Mangus Ortus Novem



100% agreed.

I think its too late to enter into 1st industrial revolution as world is entering into 4th industrial revolution.

 

[VCheng]

My theory is change always comes through (call change anything ideas, innovation, invention, etc) an underlying dissatisfaction an acknowledgement that there is something wrong with what we have right now, or a genuine concern/desire to improve things,

And my theory - for which I have caught flak many times on PDF - is precisely that most people in Pakistan are pretty happy with the way things are done and work in their country, and hence effective changes are not possible nor needed - including education.

 

[nang2]

Education as a solution for social issues is just another pipe dream fascinated by socialists who are specialized in minding other people's business. To make that task easy for them, they have to change other people's mind first. That is why they always cry out for more education, whose intention is really the mind control.

 

[niaz]

As I understand, three points have been raised in the post by Honourable ‘ps3linux’. These are related to the industrial revolution, hiatus in the scientific research & progress in the Islamic world for the last 700 years and the abysmal education system in Pakistan.

These are extremely serious topics and require a lot more knowledge than the engineering education & experience has provided me with. Nevertheless, I will attempt to put in my two cents worth on each one the points seriatim.


There is a huge amount of material published on the causes & catalysts of the industrial revolution. Over the years I have had the opportunity of perusing quite a few articles on this subject. In my opinion, there was no single cause or reason. Industrial Revolution happened because following the imperialistic & trade expansion of the European colonial powers during the 17th and 1st half of the 18th century, all the ingredients suddenly came together and triggered technological innovation resulting in an explosion of wealth which in turn caused the industrial revolution to accelerate further.

At first, scientific innovations caused the Agricultural Revolution of the early 1700s resulting in a large food surplus which not only generated the capital but also made a portion of the farm laborers available for work in the factories.

By the start of the 18th century, Britain had changed into a constitutional monarchy and was politically stable. This allowed for better policy formulation and implementation.

The industrial revolution began in Britain around 1750, primarily because of the basic ingredients of the machinery manufacture; Iron ore & coal deposits were abundant and could be readily extracted from shallow mines.

Additionally, there was already a ‘Patent’ system in place which allowed “ innovators” to have exclusive rights to their technological innovation and thus accumulating huge profits which could then be reinvested in expansion and for investing in R&D. Bank of England had been established in 1694 which could regulate and facilitate the raising of venture capital. By then Britain was already dominant colonial power. British Empire included colonies in North America, the Caribbean Islands and by 1760; British East India Company had also acquired Bengal. The colonies supplied the cheap raw material input and virtual monopoly markets for the produce.


Needless to say that education had already spread to nearly all the large British towns. An apprentice system for Artisans was already in place through various ‘Guilds’. In England alone, there were more than 2000 Grammar Schools in 1700. Admittedly these schools taught mostly grammar, logic & rhetoric in addition to Latin & Greek.

I have no data about the number of schools in India in 1700. However, there was a census in the Madras presidency controlled by East India Company. The total population of Madras Presidency was 12.35-million in 1823. Out of which 161,667 were students attending schools. In comparison, the population of England was 12-million in 1816 but there were 875,000 students attending the school. This meant that the skilled labor force was also available.

The spark /catalyst was the innovation in producing iron using ‘Coke’. Abraham Darby first used coke as fuel in the blast furnace in 1709 at Coalbrook dale. However, it was his son Abraham Darby II who built Horsehay & Ketley Furnaces in 1750. This made cast iron cheaper and more plentiful and became the staple raw material for making machinery & bridges for the railway. While in 1700 total iron production in Britain was roughly 12,000 tons, it had jumped to 2-million tons by 1850. Germany & France soon copied the British example.

It is clear that such a fortuitous combination of the different elements was not available in the subcontinent or to any Muslim countries including the Ottoman Empire.



Arab/Muslim conquest ended with the Umayyad Caliphate. There were hardly any expansionist conquests during the Abbasside Caliphate, the creation of Delhi Sultanate being an exception. However, peace during the early centuries of the Abbasids brought urbanization, commerce, and wealth that helped spur intellectual activity. It also ushered what is known as the ‘Golden Age of Islam’. During the 8th to the 13th century, there were no peers in the rest of the world in the fields of medicine and science.

Whereas according to a 2007 article in the “Physics Today” by Pervez Hoodbhoy, Muslim countries now have a total of 9 scientists, engineers & technicians per one thousand of the population against the world average of 41. There are 1.6-billion Muslims in the world but only two have won Noble Prize in Science; Abdus Salam in 1979 in Physics and Ahmed Zuweil (Born in Egypt-1946) in Chemistry in 1999. The total contribution of forty-six Muslim countries amount to just 1 percent of the world’s scientific literature; on the other Spain and India (hardly Scientific Superpowers), each contributes more to the world’s scientific literature than those countries taken together.

In my humble opinion, in addition, the mass slaughter & destruction by the Mongol hordes in the 12th century; dynamics of the interplay between religion and politics century created a hostile environment. IMHO these dynamics may have been even more influential than the lack of funding and the State patronage.

Mu’tazilism school, deeply influenced by Aristotelianism found patronage under Al-Mamun. However, subsequent Caliphs made it a punishable offense and half a century after Caliph Mamun’s death, it became a crime to copy books of philosophy. The nail in the coffin was the fall of Baghdad in 1258 through Mongol invasion. By the middle of the 13th Century, the Spanish ‘Reconquista’ had also started with the loss of Cordoba in 1236 and of Seville in 1248.

However, to be truly honest; there is no real or believable explanation of the demise of the innovative scientific thought in the Muslim world after the 13th century



No one can deny that the progress & prosperity of a country depends upon the kind of education it provides to her people. Hence educational system and standards of education in Pakistan have been a burning issue among the educationalists since independence. Every member of society would have his own views. It is, however, an accepted fact that there has been a constant decline in the standards of education in Pakistan.

In my personal opinion, while Pakistani education was never considered at par with the degree from a European University, most universities/ employers accepted Pakistani degrees. For example, my own degree from the Institute of Chemical Technology Lahore enabled me to enroll in the Masters’ Degree Course in Chemical Engineering with the University of London. Whereas currently, no one in the UAE accepts a Pakistan's degree unless it has been verified as 'Genuine' by their consulate. So many of our ‘Elected Representatives” tried to get away with fake degrees. Chief Minister Baluchistan commented that degree is a degree whether real or fake!

This shows that in addition to a decline in educational standards, there has been a decline in moral standards in society as a whole.

I am certainly no educationalists and my views are biased. IMHO the downfall started with the ZAB era. Instead of improving the education standards, he nationalized all the schools. The admissions to the good ones depended on the political recommendation. All I needed to change from the Jinnah Efficiency High School Sialkot to admission to St Marys’ Cambridge School Rawalpindi was an interview with Father Burns, who only tested my Math & English. My son could not get admission into Karachi Grammar in 1975 whereas a friend’ son who got a recommendation from Glulam Mustafa Jatoi (Chief Minister) & got in.

In my view, another problem is the socio-religious dynamics. Even a mediocre education in Pakistan is beyond the means of a middle-class family. Poorer ones have no option but to send their children to the madrasah where education is free but the graduate has little or no ability to earn a decent income or make a productive contribution to the economy other than joining a jihadi organization.

Ayub Khan had started Polytechnic Colleges way back in the 1960s. But to the best of my info, this system has not been patronized by the State. Except during the Musharraf era, Education has not received a priority emphasis. Even then it was stress on quantity rather than on quality.

I completely agree with @p3slinux. We need a complete overhaul of the education system. We need better trained & well-paid teachers, fully staffed State schools (no ghost schools) with a generally friendly environment. Also, a large number of Polytechnics to provide technical education where skilled welders, builders, carpenter, iron Smiths, motor mechanics, plumbers & electricians, etc are turned out. Primery & Secondary education is extremely important as it here that a young mind develops intuitive thinking.

IMHO Zia’s Islamization policies may have filled the mosques with the faithful; Islamic values such as honesty, fortitude, truthfulness, sense of justice, respect of the elders & tolerance have disappeared. In addition, we need to improve the moral & ethic standards of society. Therefore the Islamiyat curriculum, instead of emphasizing the sectarian differences, should be tailored towards improving moral standards.

For better or for worse, the above are my personal views and except in the case of Oil & Gas, I am no pundit. Therefore everyone is free to partially or totally disagree.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

How true! But It doesn't give me any vindication as I don't need any validation. Education? What education? Was industrialization the end result of higher education? Does repetition require mental prowess? Repetition was industrialization! That is why robots are a perfect replacement.
A consumer economy requires mass production.
Mass production requires industrialization. Financing makes both possible (consumption and production)... Job growth or jobs or we want jobs is a very loaded term. It is a very political term. If puts the onus on the politician as a benefactor of the masses. The whole job growth is done by financing mega projects ... anyone working for someone is paying someone's debts!
This is modern economy in a nutshell. Plain simple and straightforward.