• Sunday, January 26, 2020

Education is not a Solution

Discussion in 'Social & Current Events' started by Reddington, Jul 26, 2019.

  1. Brass Knuckles

    Brass Knuckles SENIOR MEMBER

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    Here some members are saying Pakistan can build F22 if it has engineers

    It's like saying if a person is a mason then he can build a Bilawal house for himself despite having no resources but that's not possible
    For to build a Bilalwal house or Jati Umra capital is more important than skill
    If you have money you can hire masons but a poor mason can't build a Bilawal house or Jati Umra for himself despite having all the know how necessary for the construction of Bilawal house
    But Nawaz Sharif despite having no skill except eating can hire workers to build a new Jati Umra
     
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  2. SIPRA

    SIPRA SENIOR MEMBER

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    100% agree with you.
     
  3. Kambojaric

    Kambojaric SENIOR MEMBER

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    Also depends on how you understand the term education. For some the purpose of education is to create highly intelligent individuals who will automatically get a job post the completion of their educatoon. However education is more than getting a piece of paper certifying your experiences after a set period of time.

    Education is also teaching the younger generation morality, love for their country, respect for elders, honesty, abhorence for crime etc. Unfortunately many Pakistanis vision of education has become blurred and they only see the first part as pertaining education i.e. that it is a transaction wherein I pay an institute a hefty sum of money in return for which the job opportunities of my offspring will become very strong. The fact that knowledge and education hugely alters an individual's behaviour with the society around them is far too often ignored. If the education system en masse taught how abhorrent littering is, how abhorent corruption is, how loving your country is very important, we would not see the kind of Pakistan that exists today. As the saying goes, Pakistan right now is full of "Parhe likhe Jahil.
     
  4. Reddington

    Reddington FULL MEMBER

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    For all the low IQ people who couldn't understand what is written in OP; I will explain even in more simpler terms.

    The worthless degrees being churned out in truckloads by the universities are increasing unemployment in Pakistan. That's a fact because those so called educated persons can not find jobs after graduation. Why? Because they don't have the skills. Instead of opening universities to milk cash; why not open vocational centers and technical institutes all over Pakistan. Why can't a nation of 220 million people whose 60% of populace is under 30 can not make electronics, machinery etc? Why do we have to import all those things from China?

    Please watch these videos. These videos explain the problems of our education system and why our youth is unemployed.






    @Simurgh @Mangus Ortus Novem @313ghazi @zulu Your comments would be appreciated.

    Regards!
     
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  5. Arsalan 345

    Arsalan 345 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Education without research and necessary equipment is useless.there is only theory and no practical implementation.you can go to any University in Pakistan.there is not enough equipment.another bigger problem is infrastructure.lack of modern infrastructure means lack of practical implementation and poor economy means less educated people.anyway I agree with the author.even with postgraduates,we can't achieve anything because there is no creativity.terrible infrastructure and terrible educated people.all these people wait for the right chance and then start corruption which has destroyed everything.
     
  6. Mangus Ortus Novem

    Mangus Ortus Novem SENIOR MEMBER

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    @Reddington my very dear YoungPak,


    Allow me to thank you for the tag. Always thought provoking perspectives... always this clarity... it is a delight!

    @Shane is another YoungPak, 'suffering' from this kind of clarity!!! It makes me happy....

    The fundamental question is what is education? What is the purpose of education?

    Engineering is training. Medicine is training. Gene Editing is training. MBA is training... AgroSciences is training... on and on...

    Degrees are perhaps a paper cloth to hide intellectual nakedness of the graduates... it almost universal.

    Education is something fundamentally different... the ability to think with originality... that comes through experience and reflections... Ability to speak/write in English is considered education in Pakistan.

    There was a report about the relevance of graducation subjects to job market in Pakistan... disparity is quite alarming.

    Training. Training. Training...

    Before being able to answer your question it is imperative to understand who/what we are as Nation.

    Feudalism. Feudals. Rulers. Ruled.

    Pak is an extremely feudal society... even those who go to oxford to graducate... remain feudal... have a look at writer of Indus Saga standing behind a feudal overlord bacha... or Noora flying away in Air Ambulance... and this is not limited to these two... every political party is such.

    Ditto for religious parties...

    And need I show you the MarasiParliment... what do you see?

    In office environment, public or private, you shall find this pervailant feudalism on display.... hence the police is an enforcing thuggery than to Protect n Serve.

    Feudalism in education as well. So the fundamental role of education in National Life is non-existent.

    You shall see it in Lawyers Chambers or in doctors associations...

    Let us call it our culture. This what we are!

    And this is reflected in Nizam... recent bleeding-heart treatment of judiciary to Noora Flies To Londonistan Plan ... is a minor case in point. Feudalism!

    PakArmedForces work because there is NO space for feudalism there ... otherwise, they would be like Punjab or Sindh police... Why you might ask?

    Industrialism


    Industrialism => Industrialisation => Industry => Industrial Economy
    (@RIWWIR )

    Have a look at NL... small country with less population than Karachi and economy bigger than entire Pakistan. Per acre yield is far higher than Pakistan an agricultural country since last 5000 years at least. Why?

    NL is one of the biggest exporter of milk/cheese/meat and other farms related industrial products... and then there is machinery and chemicals... services as well.

    Britain's Industrial Revolution was the key to its social revolution... long working hours, women, men, childeren... no rights... filthy conditions... primarily a feudal setup with machines replacing the farms...

    [​IMG]

    Yet Britain never truly became an country of Industrialism. This honour belongs to only two nations.

    Japan and Germany. Both highly feudal when they started the journey... Japan, even today, is quite feudal in its nature and culture... Germany not so much.. but impulse is there and is visibly in their heirachical culture/management style.

    If you study closely Chinese are a highly feudal society...even today... old feudalism replace with new... CPC. Their transformational growth is indictive of this approach... while Ganguz could not.

    In growth one needs to isolate Drivers.

    Now if you look closely the Chinese plan of industrial revolution 3.0 is highly betting on Artifical Intelligence and innovation driven, high value add, products... in other words they are trying to implement, transform, to the next stage of Industrialism... Germany has a similar plan... so does Japan... but Japanese have no babies...

    It would be highly educational to study last six 5YearsPlan of PRC... you shall find a consistent line and be able to analyse the strategies, polices to the stage they are in today.

    Would be nice if our coconut babuz could studies these 5YearPlans and try to learn, sythesise them to Pak's economic and social needs @Sine Nomine @ps3linux @graphican

    Now we have about 9 SEZs and some work has started there.. but we don't have a Plan. NO. We don't have any plan. I have highlighted this in The Ugly Truth about PakEconomy ... if you recall.

    Since, we are degree holder, CSS passed.... uneducated, backward lot... we don't have a Plan.

    Take a look at PakRailways... ML2... Sheikhoo is da minister... doesn't know jack about systems.. logistics, innovations or future trends... the max speed is going to be around 200+/- ... where as China is moving towards HSR... imagine after ten, fifteen years an new tender for HSR in Pakistan... because nobody has bothered to Plan.

    PR officers are basically three feudal factions... all making money by selling stuff and jobs... and higher ups going to Canada after retimenet to live life of millionaires... non is specialist or Phd ...in modern transprotations...

    Reverse Engineering the Future

    2050. 63% of Pak population will be hitting around 50 by then and their kids will be in late teens or early twenties. What kinda of country we NEED by then?

    This is The Fundamental Question. As 63% would entering last decade and half of productive life and about same % would be reading to gear up for productive life or thereabouts...

    What kind of country do we NEEB by then?

    This is a question way beyond the limits of present MarasiUnitedFront aka all PoliticalParties ... as the Nizam they function in is inheritly imprisoning development, growth and industrialisation... The Drivers are missing!

    In essence it is the responsibility of the PakState to Reverse Engineer the Future from 2050 to 2020. Develop a comprehensive roadmap and break it down into six 5YearsPlanz ... and have them followed through with Danda!

    Only then we shall be able to see the relevance of right education... only then we shall be able to educate.

    We need a Plan!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Now what is Industrialism... I shall leave it to your imagination for now!!!

    Mangus

    @PakSword @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus @WebMaster @Signalian @Khafee @niaz @messiach @HRK @Dubious @Dazzler
     
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  7. 313ghazi

    313ghazi SENIOR MEMBER

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    Both go hand in hand. I like Azad Chaiwalla, but it's clear as day his entrepreneurial spirit would have only got him so far, he has an education which helps him, he can research, he can manage risk, he can spot opportunity.

    He is 100% correct that the Pakistani education system is heavily focused on rote learning and passing exams, often of out of date concepts. That sort of education won't get you anywhere, so we need to re-vamp our education system to give our children the skillsets they need to thrive in the world. They need to be taught to think critically, to analyse facts, to manage data - this will give them the confidence to drive itno the darkness and seek out opportunity.

    Very early in this topic someone said an army of engineers could transform this country; they could if they had a practical understanding of their field, if they had knowledge of their subject rather than just had been good at regurgitating the text books to pass exams. Assume this army of competent engineers existed - they'd still need investment, they'd need to be able to work around/with regulation, they'd need leadership and management - those skill sets and opportunities are needed in the country too.

    Look at the other extreme, assume we all start selling Burgers, Biriyani, growing tomatoes, whatever. At some point we saturate markets, we create too much supply. How do you export burgers or Biriyani? You can do frozen meals, etc but you need a whole other skill set than cheffing to do that. At that point you need an education to gain skills or gain access to someone with the skills you need.

    A small roadside business which provides you a living is better than a low quality education.

    A high quality education is of the most benefit - if there is a market where you can sell your skills, or you have capital to take advantage of that education. In isolation, even being Einstein would be useless. He didn't write any papers on an empty stomache.
     
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  8. fitpOsitive

    fitpOsitive SENIOR MEMBER

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    That's a misconception. Jobs can be created out of thin air. Trust me on that. Aik teddy paisa lagaey baghair.
    All you need is knowledge and some good farsighted management. That's it.
     
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  9. 313ghazi

    313ghazi SENIOR MEMBER

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    Would you elaborate on this please? Maybe given an example of how that might work?
     
  10. PakSword

    PakSword PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Sir, you explain very well..

    I will explain my point in an extremely simple way.

    There are two kinds of education available for Pakistanis. (1) Religious, (2) Conventional.

    Religious education in Pakistan is divided into two kinds:

    (a) Formal Madarsa education, which mostly educates poor students to become an Imam e Masjid, and at most, reach a level of Mufti and spends his whole life leading prayers or giving faawa on issues related to Nikah and Talaq, inheritance etc.. and sometimes to be used for vested interests.. These students are told to not question their teacher at all, even if they see him doing stuff that's unislamic. Fazlu's students are like the same.

    (b) Informal Islamic education, such as by attending Tableeghi Jamaat, or Madni Qafla.. the people are mostly told to consider every political system currently in place as unislamic and taking part in any kind of political activity as Haraam.. These people are not concerned with whatever is happening around them, consider talking about government's corruption as useless and keep their eyes shut on things that are related to a nations well being in general.

    Conventional education is also divided into three kinds:

    (a) For poor - using outdated tools and techniques, covering syllabus that is not relevant at all in the current era. The syllabus is designed by the ruling class in Pakistan to fulfill one objective.. i.e. to provide cheap workforce for their industries and businesses.

    (b) For middle class - to equip them to become good managers

    (c) For rich - TO EQUIP THEM WITH TOOLS AND TECHNIQUES TO ESTABLISH BUSINESSES, TAKE PART IN POLITICS, BECOME LEADERS AND MAKE LAWS THAT PROTECT THEM AND ALSO TO KEEP THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AS IT IS SO THAT THEIR NEXT GENERATION IS PROTECTED AND NO ONE QUESTIONS THEM.

    Pakistan needs to completely overhaul its education system. But who will do it when the people responsible to bring change are themselves involved in the status quo to protect themselves and their families?

    When we talk about educated class (considering people coming out of all the different kinds of education systems prevalent in Pakistan), we only consider less than 50% of the population.. Because, rest of the population is NOT EDUCATED AT ALL. There is a reason that any government doesn't put any effort to educate them. Why? Because our rulers, who mostly come from feudal system and industrialist class know that educating the majority means end of their rule. Any kind of education (even the worst kind like that is being provided to poor people in Pakistan) gives some form of analytical skills.. Also, a person starts to read news papers, and when he reads newspapers, he starts thinking and questioning his masters. Once he does that, he starts distancing himself from bhuttoism or sharifistan.

    So in short:

    1 - Any kind of education promotes anti feudalism. Feudal lords do not want their peasants to study and question the existence of the feudal system. In Pakistan, promotion of the available education is the key to bring change (though it will take a generation or more) to replace the masters who are ruling us and making laws (that are in their own favor) to protect them, their family and their businesses/ establishments.

    2 - Once the change comes, the first thing to do is to bring education system, syllabus, tools and techniques to international standards.. so that our system produces businessmen rather than job seekers. At this moment, our system is producing few businessmen, and they also want to migrate.

    3 - Merge religious and conventional education in one system... Our universities should be producing Muftis rather than self run and regulated Madarsas.. And our Muftis should also be computer literate, take part in politics etc... I so much want to see our Imam e Masjids to run a small textile factory, with machines controlled by software and leading prayers by taking time off from his business.. and I so much want to see a CFO having enough religious knowledge to question an Imam if he is not sure about something he preaches.

    4 - Most importantly, our education system should incorporate ethics as the most important part of syllabus.. where students learn to question everything, report ill practices and become good humans.

    Once this is achieved, deans such as the one in OP will not be able to make useless remarks and invite people to comment on their thought process. You can't question a dean in Pakistan, because he is himself a product of the system currently in place..
     
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  11. fitpOsitive

    fitpOsitive SENIOR MEMBER

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    Just as first tip. Make some industry tax free for 15 years that we have lot of graduates but we don't have big industry. Examples : IT and electronic design etc
     
  12. SIPRA

    SIPRA SENIOR MEMBER

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    Today, after seeing the image of Noora, in that so called air ambulance, the first thought, which came to my mind, was that perhaps, the most shameless entity, which is totally devoid of any sense of honor, is Establishment of Pakistan.
     
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  13. jericho

    jericho FULL MEMBER

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    Education doesn't mean someone must have a PhD, it can also mean being able to read, write, think. The current literacy rate in Pak is embarrassing (around 50-60 percent), and the criteria of literacy rate from what I've heard is just being able to write own name, if this is the case then surely if 40-50 percent people cant write their own name is a big problem
     
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  14. jamal18

    jamal18 SENIOR MEMBER

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    I have noticed that Pakistanis worship education, almost like a caste system. Education is far too overated in Pakistan.
     
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  15. Vapnope

    Vapnope SENIOR MEMBER

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    The author has given example of british empire without pointing out the obvious that Britishers looted money after colonizing the weaker world then came the industrial revolution.

    In case of Pakistan we need money for the development and there are three ways of getting that money,
    - Exports
    - Loans (too expensive)
    - Foreign remittance
    Now looking at export sector we can tell that Pakistan lacks skilled worker and sophisticated machinery to manufacture anything that can compete with Western counterparts. Our agri sector requires sophisticated means to increase the yield and minimize the perishable and resource loss.

    Foreign remittance is a great way to earn money for development if you have educated people. Think about Indian IT experts who sends billion of dollars back home. Think about Doctors and engineers who run hospitals and factories in Europe. Foreign remittance cannot reach its true potential if you dont have a service sector which in turn is not possible if you dont have educated people.

    So yes education either humanities and/or technical is very important for a country to invest in development.
     
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